MPSCS Skip??

[gg750]

Anyone know if it's common for MPSCS talk goups to skip? I'm picking up a LOT of traffic tonight on the Traverse City tower, from all corners of the state. Some of the talk groups...

1040 (MSP D1 North)
2313 (Macomb County Sheriff)
2316 (Macomb County - Station 23, Petersburg FG)
3141 (Van Buren County Sheriff)
3167 (Van Buren County ?????)
6072 (Gogebic County Sheriff) far western U.P.

And more keep rolling in. This isn't just bits of traffic either. I'm hearing both sides of the conversation loud and clear. Been going on for almost and hour now. I know there aren't that many out of town vehicles up here. A quick run of Pro96Com didn't show any oddball radio affiliations.

G

 

[bbreiler]

not sure if it is the cause. There is an emergency management symposium going on in Traverse City over the next couple of days. If some of the EMD's brought there radios it would explain why you are receiving some of the 'skip.'

 

[Jimmy252]

seems like Macomb CO sheriff 2313 has been up that way alot lately. i was up in Roscommon 2 weeks ago and i was hearing full conversations from Macomb.

 

[rdale]

Talkgroups don't "skip" like frequencies do... Based on the number of EMA / sheriff cars I see in the parking lot here at the GT Resort - they have their radios on which drags their talkgroups along too...

 

[MetalManMI]

Based on the number of EMA / sheriff cars I see in the parking lot here at the GT Resort - they have their radios on which drags their talkgroups along too...

Doesn't quite work that way...typically speaking (with some exceptions), affiliations will only be granted one tower "layer" out from the "home" towers. When outside of that range, SOP is to switch over to your home Statewide channel (or to the area you're in if the need arises to communicate with other agencies in the area you're visiting).

 

[rdale]

Hmmm... I think it does? I know when staying in Gaylord I hear Livingston Co quite often, and found a county car at the resort across the lake. In Lansing, I hear EVERYTHING at one time or another, based on units coming to the city for training.

SOP may suggest they switch, and it makes sense, but clearly it is not a forced issue.

Look at the list gg posted - are you saying that the talkgroups are skipping up here? Because those are more than one layer away

 

[gg750]

Doesn't quite work that way...typically speaking (with some exceptions), affiliations will only be granted one tower "layer" out from the "home" towers. When outside of that range, SOP is to switch over to your home Statewide channel (or to the area you're in if the need arises to communicate with other agencies in the area you're visiting).

Thats what I thought. I didn't think local talk groups could be dragged that far from home. Usually when an out of town car/ambulance is in the area, they use a statewide TG to chat with home base.

G

 

[rdale]

Again - your observation above rules that out. When I sat in on LFD training, they were told that the dispatch channel could go statewide but TACs cannot. That matches up with what we're all observing here.

Or gg is making up a story about those talkgrouops ;>

 

[MetalManMI]

When I sat in on LFD training, they were told that the dispatch channel could go statewide but TACs cannot. That matches up with what we're all observing here.

As I said, there are some exceptions. When I travel to Lansing, my radio(s) can affiliate on the Lansing tower (101). However, the same radios are "Out of Range" when south in Jackson or further north...or further west. It makes no difference if they are on the main dispatch channel or any other channels.

Trust me...I've been all over the state and have found my training on the MPSCS system design to be accurate.

Now...with that said, there may be some exceptions for smaller agencies/counties. I work for the most populated county in the state, so there may be no exceptions in our case due to the heavy traffic/tower burden.

Another possibility is that the preset parameters are being overridden for special instances.

 

[gg750]

Or gg is making up a story about those talkgrouops ;>

You're right...I made up this whole story just to stir the pot and waste everyones time. :roll: Didn't you say you're at the GT resort?? Flip on your scanner and listen for yourself before you accuse me of lying.

The whole reason I brought up the "skip" question in the first place is because I'm hearing TGs over a tower when there are no radios using that TG affiliating with that tower. Isn't that how the system works?

 

[m297]

Doesn't quite work that way...typically speaking (with some exceptions), affiliations will only be granted one tower "layer" out from the "home" towers. When outside of that range, SOP is to switch over to your home Statewide channel (or to the area you're in if the need arises to communicate with other agencies in the area you're visiting).

Nop not totally true, REGD2W, REG2S, SECID all work when I go to northern Michigan. Only affiliates with the tower if I'm tuned to that talk group, the scan function doesnt affiliate the talk group.

 

[MetalManMI]

Nop not totally true, REGD2W, REG2S, SECID all work when I go to northern Michigan. Only affiliates with the tower if I'm tuned to that talk group, the scan function doesnt affiliate the talk group.

Evidently, those TG's have a broader site access profile vs my department's. I know what you're saying about the scan function...but I am not talking about that, I'm talking about having the radio set directly to our main (dispatch) channel (or directly to any of our alternate channels). After about a county out, they go "Out of Range" (with the exception of Lansing).

 

[rdale]

I made up this whole story just to stir the pot and waste everyones time.

Relax. That's why I put smily after it.

Didn't you say you're at the GT resort?? Flip on your scanner and listen for yourself before you accuse me of lying.

Yes and yes. And I see a boatload of out-of-area police cars here too.

The whole reason I brought up the "skip" question in the first place is because I'm hearing TGs over a tower when there are no radios using that TG affiliating with that tower. Isn't that how the system works?

There are radios affiliated with that tower.

Based on you and I hearing them here, there are two options (talkgroup skip is physically impossible.)

1) Major malfunction by MPSCS
2) Out of area units have their radios on, and their home talkgroups are "carried" along too.

Based on actual reports from m297, and experience / training from me, and reports from many others who use or listen to the system, I'm voting for #2 and saying that MetalMan's department uses MPSCS different than many others. You may pick another option if you'd like, but that's what most of us are going with

 

[MetalManMI]

I'm voting for #2 and saying that MetalMan's department uses MPSCS different than many others.

This is right out of my MPSCS training materials:

MPSCS Roaming Configuration

Mobile and portable radios are recognized by the system and granted access based on valid system ID, talkgroup ID and individual ID. Currently the system is configured so that if EITHER the talkgroup ID or the individual radio ID is not allowed at a site, the radio will be sent a site access denial reject upon affiliation. Individual radio IDs are valid at all MPSCS sites; therefore, talkgroup IDs are used as the limiting factor when developing site access profiles. Talkgroup site access profiles define the available valid sites for a specific talk group.​

Typically, for example, valid sites for a county include those within the county boundary and a first layer ring of sites within adjacent counties. These are sites that a radio may roam to during normal day-to-day operations. In some instances this may not be desirable. For example, loading may be such that there are limited system resources available on adjacent or outlying sites that could cause the user or other users to experience grade of service problems.​

It stands to reason that the "state boys" were given broader roaming capabilities vs us "county mounties"...

As I said before, I'm sure it has a lot to do with the potential negative impact on the system/towers. During the day, our main dispatch channel is going nearly non-stop. That would potentially introduce a 2x - 10x added load to many areas with very little traffic and very few frequency allocations for trunking.

 

[m297]

It stands to reason that the "state boys" were given broader roaming capabilities vs us "county mounties"...

Hey Hey Hey!!!! Easy now!! We are all in this together as far as I'm concerned. But no your probaly right I've been up in the UP and still have affiliation with the system on my talk groups. I do know this that all the Id's on my zone "C" are only allowed in the surrounding counties. So that makes sense what you are saying. stands to reason that the "state boys" were given broader roaming capabilities vs us "county mounties"...

 

[rdale]

If you look at the list of talkgroups being brought to TC in his first post - those are clearly more than state boys...

 

[N8RUS]

Mpscs

seems like Macomb CO sheriff 2313 has been up that way alot lately. i was up in Roscommon 2 weeks ago and i was hearing full conversations from Macomb.

Forever what's it worth, I was in the Grayling/Roscommon area during the same period and was listening to Livingston Co. Sheriff dispatch.

 

[MetalManMI]

Hey Hey Hey!!!! Easy now!! We are all in this together as far as I'm concerned.

Amen bro...just havin a little fun!

If you look at the list of talkgroups being brought to TC in his first post - those are clearly more than state boys...

OK...here's a theory (maybe...haven't thought it through...but throwing it out for consideration)...

What if TC switched from their primary CC (868.7750) to their alternate CC (868.8750). That alternate CC is also the primary CC for:

Ithaca (103) (Gratiot Co) (MSP D1 North)
Lakeport (203) (St. Clair Co) (adjacent to Macomb Co)
Ann Arbor (207) (Washtenaw Co)
Battle Creek (311) (Calhoun Co) (2 counties east of Van Buren)
S. Atlanta (408) (Montmorency Co)
N. Atlanta (410) (Montmorency Co)
Interlochen (429) (Grand Traverse Co)
and Negaunee (601) (Marquette Co) (2 counties east of Gogebic Co)

It is also the alternate CC for:
Sterling (111) (Arenac Co)

So...maybe there was some "skip" involved if TC was operating off the alternate CC and there was long range RX on that frequency (868.8750) reaching the TC tower. The tower wouldn't necessarily pick up and handle the individual radio affiliation(s)...just the resulting traffic from the distant tower(s)...maybe?

If not the CC...maybe just the voice frequencies?

I'm trying to pull into consideration the point that the OP ran Pro96com and didn't see any "oddball" affiliations on the tower at the time they were hearing the distant department traffic.

 

[bvankl]

It is dependent on how your agency wants the radio's programmed. Most counties in Michigan (from my understanding) has the 1 county layered system. So your radios will go out of range for local talkgroups outside of that second county ring.

If the agency sets up the radio to affiliate local talkgroups statewide they will do that also.

I have one radio that dies for local talkgroups outside of the county "ring" and another that will work statewide for local talkgroups. Obviously two different agencies. When the radio that is open to the state is turned on, the talkgroups do follow that radio around. So using a scanner, you can monitor any talkgroups affiliated at the time using the same tower. This is atleast my understanding.

Bob

 

[MetroMike]

It is dependent on how your agency wants the radio's programmed. Most counties in Michigan (from my understanding) has the 1 county layered system. So your radios will go out of range for local talkgroups outside of that second county ring.

If the agency sets up the radio to affiliate local talkgroups statewide they will do that also.

I have one radio that dies for local talkgroups outside of the county "ring" and another that will work statewide for local talkgroups. Obviously two different agencies. When the radio that is open to the state is turned on, the talkgroups do follow that radio around. So using a scanner, you can monitor any talkgroups affiliated at the time using the same tower. This is atleast my understanding.

Bob

Okay, so basically an MSP unit that works, say Alcona County, will be able to monitor 01P911 both inside and outside of the rings whereas as county unit with no need to leave the county lines would be restricted to the first "ring" or two? Even if both were programmed with the same centralized dispatch talkgroup?