NCVEC Form 605 SSN requirement

[mmckenna]

Interesting the amount of heated discussion this subject has brought up. I'm surprised that protecting your own personal information isn't a more popular idea.

It's actually kind of funny to watch peoples reactions when they ask for my info, and I refuse to give it to them without a really good reason. Stores always want phone numbers and e-mail addresses. A lot of it is for directed marketing. I used to just tell them flat out "no", which usually resulted in managers being called, etc. Now it's simpler to just tell them "I don't have one". That usually get a response on it's own.

Seeing that I am on call 24x7 and have to keep my cell phone on, I'm really particular about who gets the number. This seems to really tick people off. I don't understand the society that assumes that my personal information is there's for the asking, and they are allowed to do with it what they want.

Call me paranoid if you want, it doesn't offend me in the least. I just prefer to question people when they assume they have a right to my personal information. Interesting how it seems to rile so many people up.

 

[k6cpo]

In San Diego County, we will not allow someone to take the exam if they don't have an FRN. No FRN, no test! If they don't have one when they show up at the test location, we will assist them with getting one on the spot using a cell phone or internet capable tablet or computer. Several of the VEs have tablets just for that purpose.

In the case of an individual not receiving a CSCE, that sometimes is the fault of the candidate. We've had to chase people down the street to give them the CSCE because they walked out of the room after taking the test not knowing they were supposed to get one.

 

[N0IU]

If they don't have one when they show up at the test location, we will assist them with getting one on the spot using a cell phone or internet capable tablet or computer. Several of the VEs have tablets just for that purpose.

If I had to fill out a government form that required me to provide my SSN using someone else's computer, I would very politely and diplomatically tell them what they could do with their testing session.

 

[k6cpo]

If I had to fill out a government form that required me to provide my SSN using someone else's computer, I would very politely and diplomatically tell them what they could do with their testing session.

That's your and their perogative. At that point they would be asked to leave and come back at a later date with an FRN.

 

[N0IU]

I guess what I don't understand is if a first time examinee is willing to put their SSN on a Form 605, why won't you let them?

 

[techguru]

I wouldn't refer to it as panic, more morbid curiosity.

My call sign would give someone my name and address, but not much more. Since that info is available at the County Records Office on the property ownership info, etc, I'm not too concerned about that. However, to be safe, I did pull my call sign license plates off the truck. My SSN isn't available on any of the documents, at least not to the general public. Likely, anyone who wanted it bad enough, could get the info they wanted on me. Such is the risk of living in the age of technology. Doesn't mean I should make it easy for anyone.

I would use a PO BOX for FCC dealings so that any look up is a dead end.

 

[k6cpo]

I guess what I don't understand is if a first time examinee is willing to put their SSN on a Form 605, why won't you let them?

Because the FCC will not process the application without an FRN. They do not automatically assign one to an application that doesn't include it. This helps to avoid delays in the issuance of a license. I suspect that not having an FRN caused the delays that triggered these two threads in the first place.

 

[N0IU]

Because the FCC will not process the application without an FRN.

Of course they will. The Form 605 very clearly states that you can use your Social Security Number OR your FCC Registration Number.

 

[k6cpo]

Of course they will. The Form 605 very clearly states that you can use your Social Security Number OR your FCC Registration Number.

The NCVEC 605 is NOT an FCC form. If that form is submitted to the FCC, it will be returned with no action. It even says so right on the bottom of the form. The NCVEC 605 is for VE/VEC use only! If you download a 605 form from the FCC website, nowhere on it will you find a block for SSN.

Edit: I've contacted my VE team leader for clarification of our policy and that of the FCC regarding SSNs on license applications. I'll get back to you.

 

[N0IU]

The NCVEC 605 is NOT an FCC form. If that form is submitted to the FCC, it will be returned with no action. It even says so right on the bottom of the form. The NCVEC 605 is for VE/VEC use only! If you download a 605 form from the FCC website, nowhere on it will you find a block for SSN.

Edit: I've contacted my VE team leader for clarification of our policy and that of the FCC regarding SSNs on license applications. I'll get back to you.

You are 100% correct. The VE team does not submit the NCVEC Form 605 to the FCC... they submit it to the VEC to which your team belongs and they file the necessary forms with the FCC.

You really should get a current copy of your VEC's testing manual and read it thoroughly.

 

[N0IU]

Too late to edit the above post...

If you download a 605 form from the FCC website, nowhere on it will you find a block for SSN.

The Main Form 605 from the FCC is 11 pages long! Actually, the application is 2 pages long and the other 9 pages are instructions! This is why the FCC allowed the NCVEC to create their own form specifically tailored for amateur radio license applications.

From the ARRL VE manual:

"Unfortunately, the FCC Form 605 did not meet the needs of volunteer examiners; e.g., there is no space to indicate the license class held by an examinee, nor the class of license earned to at a test session. There is no space for the date and place of the examination, and no place for the three VEs’ certifications.
When FCC adopted the ULS rules, the agency allowed “the VEs may collect all necessary information in any manner of their choosing, including creating their own forms.” This set the stage for the NCVEC Form 605. The NCVEC form included the items missing from the FCC form."

 

[k6cpo]

You are 100% correct. The VE team does not submit the NCVEC Form 605 to the FCC... they submit it to the VEC to which your team belongs and they file the necessary forms with the FCC.

You really should get a current copy of your VEC's testing manual and read it thoroughly.

Yes, I'm aware of how the process works.

Regarding SSNs, the following is a direct quote from the SANDARC VEC Manual:

"No candidate shall be permitted to take an amateur radio examination unless they have been issued an FCC Registration number. No other number provided by the applicant will allow the application to be processed through the FCC."

Do you see where I'm coming from here? Maybe the ARRL VEC accepts NCVEC 605s with the SSN in lieu of an FRN, but the SANDARC VEC does not. If it is true the FCC will not process an application with only a SSN, maybe the ARRL has people that obtain the FRN for the candidate after the actual application is submitted. I'm trying to determine for certain if the FCC will process an application with a SSN and no FRN.

The Main Form 605 from the FCC is 11 pages long! Actually, the application is 2 pages long and the other 9 pages are instructions! This is why the FCC allowed the NCVEC to create their own form specifically tailored for amateur radio license applications.

From the ARRL VE manual:

"Unfortunately, the FCC Form 605 did not meet the needs of volunteer examiners; e.g., there is no space to indicate the license class held by an examinee, nor the class of license earned to at a test session. There is no space for the date and place of the examination, and no place for the three VEs’ certifications.
When FCC adopted the ULS rules, the agency allowed “the VEs may collect all necessary information in any manner of their choosing, including creating their own forms.” This set the stage for the NCVEC Form 605. The NCVEC form included the items missing from the FCC form."

I'm also an ARRL accredited VE, so I'm aware of that paragraph. I'm also aware that the ARRL VE manual says the SSN is acceptable on the NCVEC form...

 

[k6cpo]

I requested clarification from my VE team leader on the SSN vs FRN discussion. He says that if an application is submitted to the FCC with just the SSN, it will be returned unprocessed, thereby delaying the issuance of the license.

How other VEC organizations are handling applicants with no FRN, I have no idea.

 

[KC0KM]

I am a W5YI VE, and so far I have not ever seen anyone who has refused to put down their SSN. My handbook says we cannot even give them an exam since the VEC would not be able to process the application. If they do not have one, we are to be referred to the SSA, and we are to ask them to reapply once they have obtained it. While I can perhaps understand why some people might be hesitant in putting it down, as others have said, you have to provide a tax number or FRN. One time we had a young man use his passport as an ID.

As for people showing up, and not knowing what to bring -- I sorry I don't buy it. If they studied -- and if they are taking the test, they should have studied to begin with, they should already know, as it is part of the study guide (first section if I recall correctly). When I went to do my upgrades, I just used my FRN (and my call). I also provided a copy, (and brought my original) license. There is no excuse for not knowing what to bring, or what is expected to happen during a test, if you have studied, you would know.

 

[N0IU]

Obviously the SANDARC VEC runs their test sessions in a manner that is not contrary to the NCVEC and after the above clarification, they apparently can do whatever they want in terms of requiring an FRN instead of a SSN.

 

[k6cpo]

We require the FRN instead of an SSN so the process is as smooth as possible. SANDAC tests on Saturdays. The exam results are forwarded to the VEC manager the same day and electronically submitted to the FCC by the next day. In most cases, the results appear in the ULS on Monday.

If there are VECs that are still allowing candidates to put SSNs on the 605 form, then they have no-one to blame but themselves when the candidate comes back complaining that the license hasn't been issued.

 

[N0IU]

If there are VECs that are still allowing candidates to put SSNs on the 605 form, then they have no-one to blame but themselves when the candidate comes back complaining that the license hasn't been issued.

Obviously your VEC can do whatever they want in this regard, but I wasn't aware of there being any significant issue with licenses not being granted because examinees were using their SSN instead of their FRN. I have been a VE for over 18 years and everyone who has come through one of my test sessions has successfully received their license or an upgrade.

Maybe licenses and upgrades from my sessions do not appear the next day, but I have full faith and confidence in the ARRL's ability to properly process license applications in a timely manner.

 

[milkman21218]

I'm a VE and we give test every month on the weekend. We have people who use their SSN. We upload the info to the FCC on Monday mornings. And within the hour they have call signs for our people who took the test.

 

[k6cpo]

Obviously your VEC can do whatever they want in this regard, but I wasn't aware of there being any significant issue with licenses not being granted because examinees were using their SSN instead of their FRN. I have been a VE for over 18 years and everyone who has come through one of my test sessions has successfully received their license or an upgrade.

Maybe licenses and upgrades from my sessions do not appear the next day, but I have full faith and confidence in the ARRL's ability to properly process license applications in a timely manner.

I wonder if there is staff at the ARRL VEC that obtains FRNs for candidates who don't have one before the paperwork is submitted to the FCC...