Need input from the pros

[Jadelta]

To the ones who know more than me, which is everyone,

I’m seeking advice on an uhf mobile radio selection. Long story short. My team uses uhf handheld radios in the field and we want to expand communication to equipment and vehicles but still be one same frequency as our handhelds so all can communicate. Our goal is to have vehicle to vehicle communication while traveling across the country. I do understand range is limited but want the most I can get out of the mobile radio for vehicles. Like 20-30 miles? I also understand the handhelds don’t have the range capability which is fine. Again, just looking for unbiased suggestions and advise. My local radio shop, who services mainly gov wants to charge an arm and both legs. So I’d like to see what this community suggests compared to them.

 

[mmckenna]

Couple of things:

What does your FCC license allow for power?
What locations does your FCC license allow?
What emission types does your FCC license allow?

Tell us about your portables? You want something compatible, so we need to know what you have now so we know what to suggest.

20-30 miles range is unlikely in most conditions unless it is extremely flat.

A decent mobile radio that will fit with what your FCC license allows will be your best option, as long as you have a properly installed antenna on the roof.

Good equipment that is properly installed with a good antenna is not going to be cheap. Knowing what your budget is will help us make a better recommendation.

In reality, applications like this is where a cell based solution can make much more sense. No challenges with licensing, using the cell network will give you the range you want, and probably everyone you are working with already has a suitable handset.

 

[nokones]

Is this 20-30 mile footprint range/coverage stationary in a geographical region or is this footprint moving at any given time to different geographical areas?

If it is moving across the country, you should consider subscribing to the Wave System. As long you are in range of a cellular service provider, you will have nationwide coverage.

 

[buddrousa]

What is the range you are getting now with your portables?
Do you own a repeater and tower?
As mmckenna as posted we need more information but just remember a quality radio system is not a do it yourself project.
20 to 30 mile range is going to require depending on terrain 250 to 300 foot antenna above the ground. Tower owners charge very high dollars a month for tower rent this could $500 a month to over a $1000 a month depending on the region, the better the site the more they charge.

 

[MTS2000des]

A quality system also requires an on site visit, something a hobby forum member is unlikely to do. First stop should be a qualified local LMR shop who can review the licensing, site locations, existing equipment both subscriber and FNE, and provide guidance from there. Again, all things beyond the scope of what can be done online on a radio hobbyist forum.

 

[Jadelta]

We are currently Motorola vx -261-g6-5. FCC license? Honestly I’m not sure my company has one and doubt it. So that is something I will get if I need it. I’m new to my position and working towards compliance in a lot of areas such as this. Cell phones, take that out of the equation. We need instant communication without the back and forth calling amongst all the team members. We are always traveling around different states so a “ home base station” wouldn’t be an option. At least from my understanding. Budget- well I don’t want to get *****ed at just yet. My first step is to outfit our main 5 trucks first as a test run. We don’t need anything fancy. We only use 6 channels max. We just are looking for reliability and range ( whatever that max could possibly be). We do drive through cities of course but we operate in rural areas. I do have a print out of the details the last time we bought a new handheld and it was programmed if anything on that is of any help. It’s like reading a second language to me.

 

[tweiss3]

Other than the licensing (which is very important), I don't want you to oversell truck radios as the fix for distance. Your reliable distance is going to be restricted to line of sight. Going from handheld to handheld at 3' to truck mounted at 7' will help, but max is realistically going to be approximately 6 miles (personal experience), dependent on terrain. Look at the NIFOG manual (federally published interoperability manual) that has good line of site guidance:

 

[mmckenna]

We are currently Motorola vx -261-g6-5. FCC license? Honestly I’m not sure my company has one and doubt it. So that is something I will get if I need it. I’m new to my position and working towards compliance in a lot of areas such as this.

OK, good, they need one. They might get away with a few portables that are not licensed, but start running a higher power mobile and moving around the country, and you run the risk of interfering with a legit user.
This may be why the radio shop was going to charge you so much. Frequency coordination and licensing is not free and most shops will charge a healthy profit for it.

First step is you'll need to figure out if you have a license or not. The radios you have are UHF analog, so there are some options if you are not licensed. Finding suitable analog UHF radios isn't hard, but first things first….

Cell phones, take that out of the equation. We need instant communication without the back and forth calling amongst all the team members.

I agree, dial up cell phones to communicate isn't a good solution.
Push To Talk over Cellular, though, is an excellent solution.
You can run PTToC on a regular smart phone, or you can buy devices that do it, but look like a walkie talkie. This isn't dial up phone calls, this is push to talk, one to many, two way radio type service. Benefits are that it does not require a license, and it'll give you nationwide coverage. It's almost always cheaper than trying to build out a traditional radio system.

We are always traveling around different states so a “ home base station” wouldn’t be an option. At least from my understanding. Budget- well I don’t want to get *****ed at just yet. My first step is to outfit our main 5 trucks first as a test run. We don’t need anything fancy. We only use 6 channels max. We just are looking for reliability and range ( whatever that max could possibly be). We do drive through cities of course but we operate in rural areas. I do have a print out of the details the last time we bought a new handheld and it was programmed if anything on that is of any help. It’s like reading a second language to me.

Any traditional two way radio service is going to require an FCC license. We can help you with that. If you feel more comfortable, you can direct message one of us the specifics and we can look to see if there is an existing license.

If there isn't, the getting licensed is step one. Don't buy any more radios until you get that resolved.

You can do some basic analog UHF radios for a few hundred bucks each, but you'll need to figure in installation.

None of this is impossible, but it's not going to be cheap to do it legally and correctly. This is one of the reasons why the Push To Talk over Cellular is a good solution. Much easier to set up, manage and no license requirements. Don't spend any money until you've look at that solution. The great range makes it a good solution based on what you are saying.

 

[Jadelta]

Thank you for the input so far. A lot of factors to consider here. I have read up on the pttoc radios and they are an option. They are small, built in antenna so that is a pro. Only hesitancy is how they operate in areas of poor or weaker cell service but flip side is they can communicate across the country. So another question, which I’m sure is dumb, but for everyone who understands this better, what’s thoughts on GMRS radios? I see each user needs a $35 license which isn’t a problem. Those radios keep popping up when I’m reading up. Also, installation isn’t a factor. I have an equipment/shop team that are very good at installs etc.

 

[buddrousa]

For GMRS every single user has to have their own Licensee. GMRS that would be shared with every other Licensee Holder, kinda like a CB Radio not private.

 

[Jadelta]

That’s what I figure from reading. Just wanted another opinion

 

[speedway_navigator]

The Sonim PoC unit is nice because it is a phone with a dedicated PTT button. I used them on a covid deployment in California.

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for the input so far. A lot of factors to consider here. I have read up on the pttoc radios and they are an option. They are small, built in antenna so that is a pro. Only hesitancy is how they operate in areas of poor or weaker cell service but flip side is they can communicate across the country.

There are 'mobile' versions that will use an external antenna, greatly increasing range. But, yeah, the cell network has to be there for them to work. Not a good option if your crews work well out in the wilderness, but a good option for just about everywhere else.

If "work everywhere, all the time" is a requirement, there are satellite based services, but they get pricy.

So another question, which I’m sure is dumb, but for everyone who understands this better, what’s thoughts on GMRS radios? I see each user needs a $35 license which isn’t a problem. Those radios keep popping up when I’m reading up.

Yeah, as said above, the GMRS license only covers the holder plus their immediate family. Unless all your guys are related, every user would need to have their own license. While it is entirely legal to use GMRS for business use if properly licensed, you'll get a lot of complaints from people that don't know the rules and will take great personal offense.

Also, installation isn’t a factor. I have an equipment/shop team that are very good at installs etc.

OK, good. Clean DC power direct off the battery. Permanent mount antenna on top of the vehicle. It's not hard to do if one has the correct tools and a bit of knowledge.

 

[mmckenna]

The Sonim PoC unit is nice because it is a phone with a dedicated PTT button. I used them on a covid deployment in California.

Siyata SD7 is a hand held device that looks more like a two way radio. Plus, they offer a mobile adapter that will connect it to a speaker, microphone, DC power and an external antenna. I'd love to try one of those out myself.

SD7 - Siyata PTT Inc

siyata.net

Siyata VK7 Vehicle Kit

The Ultimate In-Vehicle PTT Solution. The VK7 Vehicle Kit installs in your vehicle and allows to slide the SD7 Handset into the VK7 Vehicle Kit for seamless connectivity from portable to mobile. You will enjoy crystal clear communication with the integrated 10W speaker, powered by the vehicle...

siyata7.com

 

[buddrousa]

An antenna hole saw works better than a regular hole saw.

 

[speedway_navigator]

One of my students said the FCC took away the ability to link GMRS repeaters by IP to extend coverage, seems counter productive, or did big business complain about lost profits?

 

[ramal121]

Siyata SD7 is a hand held device that looks more like a two way radio. Plus, they offer a mobile adapter that will connect it to a speaker, microphone, DC power and an external antenna. I'd love to try one of those out myself.

Icom makes a nice little PoC mobile. IP501M.

 

[TampaTyron]

The pros above you have solved this problem thousands of times. 2 options:

1-Simplex radio-to-radio mobiles in trucks. You are looking at a couple of miles of range. Cost is the mobile, plus FCC, plus mist hardware, plus install. Say $1000 per truck to start (assuming high tier radios and pro installers). Not reliant on anyone other than your trucks, but range is short.

2-LTE/cell PTT over Cell Radios. Coverage anywhere there is cell. Approx $10-20/month usage fee. Radios and install are probably $300-400 total. Reliant on the cell providers, but range is huge.

Good luck. Let us know what you end up with. TT

 

[AK9R]

One of my students said the FCC took away the ability to link GMRS repeaters by IP to extend coverage, seems counter productive, or did big business complain about lost profits?

The short story is that the GMRS rules never allowed linking, but some repeater owners read the rules differently from how the FCC wrote them. A year or so ago, the FCC made it clear on their web site that linking GMRS repeaters using the Internet is not allowed. Some large linked GMRS systems turned off their links, some didn't. Extensively discussed elsewhere at RadioReference--no need to discuss it in this thread.

 

[Jadelta]

Great information here. I reach out to another radio shop outside where I live to get their input also.

1- Motorola xpr4550. Has a deal for me on some used ones for $370 a unit. Doesn’t include antenna but will program for free. Still will have to verify if my company has an FCC license but let’s assume not and I need that also.

2- pttoc from rapid radios mobile unit. $299. First year service is included and then $50 a year after per unit.

Going to continue researching and see what’s going to be the best option for my teams unique operations. Thanks again to all who have given input. Very much appreciated.