Need VHF/UHF mobile antenna suggestions

[ClemsonSCJ]

Ok guys, I’m jumping into this amateur radio thing completely fresh and know virtually nothing about it (I catch on quick though). Wife and I are in the process of studying up to get our technician and I’ve bought a couple Baofeng UV-5R’s to start listening and learning. I’ve got 4 radios total, 2 will stay in each of our vehicles and the other 2 will stay in the house. I’ve gotten upgraded Nagoya whip antennas for each radio and they have a surprising amount of range. Disclaimer: I know I’m not supposed to be using them without a license, this was only a quick range test and we have only been using them to listen to local repeaters outside of this test. Anywho, with the upgraded whips I was able to get 2.5 miles straight line distance with both of us outside before I quit trying to go any further. Voice was clear as a bell at that distance and since our use is mostly going to be for camping/hunting and bugout/emergency purposes, I didn’t feel the need to go beyond that distance.

I have noticed, however, that inside my Grand Cherokee I have to be within 1/4 to 1/2 mile to make decent contact. So I’d like to see about getting an antenna to mount on the roof and attach to the UV-5R in my Jeep and her car to make sure we’re optimizing ranges in our vehicles. I thought it was gonna be a simple decision but learning about antennas alone, let alone amateur radio in general, is like drinking from a fire hose.

I will probably just do a magnet mount antenna on my wife’s car cause I know she’s not gonna want it to stay on there all the time. My Grand Cherokee, however, will be on there permanently. So I need to know what antennas you guys would recommend. We live in a fairly mountainous area so when we do get licensed and start communicating through repeaters, most of them are high up on mountains. I only say that because I have done hours of research trying to figure this out on my own and one bit of reading I did said that 1/4 wave antennas do better if the receiver is greater than 45 or 60 degrees above you. Again, I know literally next to nothing about this so if I’m sounding like I read some BS then disregard. Outside of that my only criteria is to keep it under 40” or so. I have a CB antenna that’s a Wilson 61” whip and it’s just barely long enough to catch stuff I do on a regular basis, like chick-fil-a’s covered awnings and what not, so I’m planning on shortening that as well. I’d like to maximize the ground plane of my roof for both the CB and VHF/UHF antennas so is there a minimum distance the 2 antennas need to be spaced from each other? I have a sunroof so that somewhat limits my space but there’s still a fair amount of roof space, but it will get cut down quick if I have to keep these antennas far apart.

I know that was a little long winded but just wanted to make sure you guys have what you need to make an informed decision. Thanks in advance.

 

[doctordialtone]

You might want to read this about the Baofeng Radio you bought

 

[ClemsonSCJ]

You might want to read this about the Baofeng Radio you bought

Well...I have them now. Like I said I’m just now jumping in the books to learn what I need to get licensed so wasn’t aware of this law change, and Amazon sells them all day long so obviously the FCC isn’t all that concerned with it. Should I burn them or can we move past this?

 

[hill]

Mag mounts are bad for vehicles and you need to read the post linked below. Plenty of small mobile antennas to mount on your wife's car that short dual band ones around 19" that won't be too hard to see.

Why we tell people to NOT use magmounts

These 2 photos show why NOT to use magmounts. This is my 2014 TDI Jetta, that I have used a magmount on for 2 years. The one photo shows the scratches on the edge of the door pillar where the coax goes in the door. The second photo is my roof. The coax has scratched the roof. The magnet has...

forums.radioreference.com

 

[ClemsonSCJ]

Yeah I’ll have to look at it and see if I can get an NMO mount somewhere she won’t pay it any mind and can just screw the antenna on whenever she wants or I want.

 

[scanmanmi]

I really like my Comet CA-2x4SR. I have to use a 5" mag mount because of a company vehicle. It works better than my Larsen 150 which is only single band. I can count on reaching home simplex VHF at 40 miles with 50 watts. The SR refers to Search and Rescue because it works well if out-of-ham-band. I use it with my scanner also.

Dual-Band | Comet Antenna

Dualband, dual-band mobile ham radio antenna, high gain mobile 2M/440 antenna

cometantenna.com

 

[scanmanmi]

Disclaimer: I know I’m not supposed to be using them without a license, this was only a quick range test and we have only been using them to listen to local repeaters outside of this test.

I saw a hillbilly pickup with an antenna clamped to the hood and a Yaesu inside. I played dumb and asked if it was 'one of them ham radios'. He said 'No it's a VHF CB".

 

[radiomankc]

Don't do any cheap Chinese antennas. I use Laird exclusively and they are excellent using NMW mounts in low profile antennas.

 

[scanmanmi]

EHam has reviews here https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-category?id=37

 

[AI7PM]

Larsen, Laird, Comtelco, PCtel/Antennex. The Larsen 2/70 and 2/70 SH are popular with hams, and higher build quality than the ham grade offerings. Don't get caught up in the marketing Gain Game. Many of the ham grade marketing tripe will quote gain in dBi figures to make theirs look better.

 

[ClemsonSCJ]

I saw a hillbilly pickup with an antenna clamped to the hood and a Yaesu inside. I played dumb and asked if it was 'one of them ham radios'. He said 'No it's a VHF CB".

Can’t fault a man for living his best life I guess.

 

[alcahuete]

What you read is generally accurate. Higher gain antennas will concentrate the signal toward the horizon, so 1/4 are great for mountainous areas. You haven't really said what band you plan on using, but a 1/4 wave antenna on 70cm is about 6" and 19" on 2m. The 1/4 VHF antenna will generally work reasonably well as a 3/4 wave on 70cm.

The best thing about 1/4 wave antennas is that they are also cheap. Usually less than $10 for a good commercial brand like Larsen or Laird. And of course, you get the small size.

 

[mmckenna]

I will probably just do a magnet mount antenna on my wife’s car cause I know she’s not gonna want it to stay on there all the time. My Grand Cherokee, however, will be on there permanently. So I need to know what antennas you guys would recommend.

A good antenna outside the vehicle will make the biggest impact on your radio system performance. Cutting corners or buying cheap Chinese junk will just frustrate you.
The BaoFengs might work well, but you will eventually want something better (which is pretty much any other radio on the market). In a mobile application, you'll find that the weak audio and small speakers on most hand held radios will cause a lot of frustration. The Baofeng will work fine to get started (hopefully), but you will eventually want to look at some decent mobile radios.

You can use the same antennas, so invest in good ones now so when you switch to mobile radios, you won't have to replace them.

1. Go with NMO mounts. It's the industry standard. Once you have a decent NMO mount on your vehicle, you'll easily be able to change out antennas as your interest change.

2. Do the permanent hole mount. Even on your wife's car. Much less issues that using a mag mount, and it'll work and look better. If your wife does not want the antenna on there full time, just purchase an NMO Rain Cap and install that in place of the antenna. But it's very likely she'll get comfortable having the antenna on there.

3. Get good quality parts. Do buy the cheap Chinese/hobby/ham grade junk. You may save a dollar or two, but you'll pay in the long term. A good NMO mount and antenna will outlast your car.

I've used Larsen and Laird extensively both for personal use and at work. I've never had one fail. My preference is Larsen, but the Laird stuff is excellent also.

For the antenna mount:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/larsen-nmokhfudsmai-1127

That has an SMA male already installed. When you switch to mobile radios, you'll need to cut those off an install an PL-259 (aka: UHF) connector.
For the antenna:

Amazon.com : Larsen NMO2/70SH Dual Band 2M/70cm 2.15dbi 19" Mobile Antenna with NMO Connector : Electronics

Amazon.com : Larsen NMO2/70SH Dual Band 2M/70cm 2.15dbi 19" Mobile Antenna with NMO Connector : Electronics

www.amazon.com

I've had one of those for about 20+ years. Just gave it to my brother in law to use on his truck. It's 1/4 wave on VHF and has some gain on UHF. A good solid antenna that will last you many years.

Again, I know literally next to nothing about this so if I’m sounding like I read some BS then disregard. Outside of that my only criteria is to keep it under 40” or so. I have a CB antenna that’s a Wilson 61” whip and it’s just barely long enough to catch stuff I do on a regular basis, like chick-fil-a’s covered awnings and what not, so I’m planning on shortening that as well.

You can't shorten antennas without changing the coil.
Better option:
Install a second NMO on top of your jeep and use a Larsen NMO-27. It's a commercial quality CB Antenna:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/larsen-nmo27c-699

49" tall. I've had the same NMO-27 for about 30 years now. I don't use CB often anymore, so it sits in the garage, but it's still a damn fine antenna and will last you forever.

I’d like to maximize the ground plane of my roof for both the CB and VHF/UHF antennas so is there a minimum distance the 2 antennas need to be spaced from each other? I have a sunroof so that somewhat limits my space but there’s still a fair amount of roof space, but it will get cut down quick if I have to keep these antennas far apart.

Sure, so you want to provide the optimum ground plane for the antennas. That's a very good plan and will give you the best performance.
Start with the dual band antenna. The ground plane needs to be at least 1/4 wave length in all directions under the antenna on it's lowest operating frequency. That means on the 2 meter band you want 19" all the way around the antenna. That's easy to do on an SUV.
For the CB antenna, optimum ground plane is going to be about 9 feet, so that's not going to happen on any road legal vehicle, so you just make sure you provide the most you can.
Separation between antennas depends on a whole lot of variables, so there isn't one answer that applies to every install. Best thing you can do is give them as much space as you can, while retaining as much ground plane as possible.

 

[ClemsonSCJ]

You haven't really said what band you plan on using, but a 1/4 wave antenna on 70cm is about 6" and 19" on 2m. The 1/4 VHF antenna will generally work reasonably well as a 3/4 wave on 70cm.

So that’s kinda going into me not knowing much about radio yet. I’m not sure which will be best. From a little of what I’ve read and also my little experience riding around town listening, I’d say we plan on using 2m when doing outdoor activities like camping/hunting trips and driving up in the mountains. I know when I did our little range test when I first got the radios, 2m did much much better when the only thing in its way was woods. I was switching back and forth between both frequencies and 70cm seemed to start getting bad reception around 3/4 mile while, like I said, the 2m went an easy 2.5 miles.

Meanwhile my 2 closest repeaters I’ve been listening to are on our hospital downtown. Now I don’t live in a big city by any means, however there are a fair amount of single story and 2 story structures around the hospital. I’ve noticed the 70cm repeater will pick up further away than the 2m, which also goes along with some of the things I’ve read.

So to answer that question I guess I’d say that I’ll most likely use 70cm around town and 2m when out around our house and when we go to the mountains.

 

[ClemsonSCJ]

A good antenna outside the vehicle will make the biggest impact on your radio system performance. Cutting corners or buying cheap Chinese junk will just frustrate you.
The BaoFengs might work well, but you will eventually want something better (which is pretty much any other radio on the market). In a mobile application, you'll find that the weak audio and small speakers on most hand held radios will cause a lot of frustration. The Baofeng will work fine to get started (hopefully), but you will eventually want to look at some decent mobile radios.

You can use the same antennas, so invest in good ones now so when you switch to mobile radios, you won't have to replace them.

1. Go with NMO mounts. It's the industry standard. Once you have a decent NMO mount on your vehicle, you'll easily be able to change out antennas as your interest change.

2. Do the permanent hole mount. Even on your wife's car. Much less issues that using a mag mount, and it'll work and look better. If your wife does not want the antenna on there full time, just purchase an NMO Rain Cap and install that in place of the antenna. But it's very likely she'll get comfortable having the antenna on there.

3. Get good quality parts. Do buy the cheap Chinese/hobby/ham grade junk. You may save a dollar or two, but you'll pay in the long term. A good NMO mount and antenna will outlast your car.

I've used Larsen and Laird extensively both for personal use and at work. I've never had one fail. My preference is Larsen, but the Laird stuff is excellent also.

For the antenna mount:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/larsen-nmokhfudsmai-1127

That has an SMA male already installed. When you switch to mobile radios, you'll need to cut those off an install an PL-259 (aka: UHF) connector.
For the antenna:

Amazon.com : Larsen NMO2/70SH Dual Band 2M/70cm 2.15dbi 19" Mobile Antenna with NMO Connector : Electronics

Amazon.com : Larsen NMO2/70SH Dual Band 2M/70cm 2.15dbi 19" Mobile Antenna with NMO Connector : Electronics

www.amazon.com

I've had one of those for about 20+ years. Just gave it to my brother in law to use on his truck. It's 1/4 wave on VHF and has some gain on UHF. A good solid antenna that will last you many years.

For starters, thanks for all the awesome input. The more I’ve had time to think about it, I had already sided with doing the NMO mount. I can confidently do that and make it so she’ll never even notice it and the antenna can be kept inside the car and screwed on whenever she or I want it to be. And the antenna you suggested will be perfect for her car too, very low profile when it is on there. I’m confident I can make that look really good. And I actually already own a kit to change out connectors on that stuff. Have had to do it a few times with my CB and my work radios.

And yes, I plan on getting an actual quality mobile radio in the future. But with my limited knowledge and even more limited budget, I figured I’d just make do with the Baofengs on a quality antenna for now, mainly just to make them usable in my vehicle since it seems to block all radio signal. But with how much a good mobile radio costs I want to be a bit more knowledgeable and be able to make a good informed decision on that. That being said, I do have a question about the antenna you suggested but it pertains more to my vehicle and the ground plane so I’ll ask that below.

You can't shorten antennas without changing the coil.
Better option:
Install a second NMO on top of your jeep and use a Larsen NMO-27. It's a commercial quality CB Antenna:

https://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/larsen-nmo27c-699

49" tall. I've had the same NMO-27 for about 30 years now. I don't use CB often anymore, so it sits in the garage, but it's still a damn fine antenna and will last you forever.

Yeah I asked more about that in the CB forum and figured that out. I told the other guy there I had been running Wilson so long I had never considered changing to something else so that’s likely what I’ll do.

Sure, so you want to provide the optimum ground plane for the antennas. That's a very good plan and will give you the best performance.
Start with the dual band antenna. The ground plane needs to be at least 1/4 wave length in all directions under the antenna on it's lowest operating frequency. That means on the 2 meter band you want 19" all the way around the antenna. That's easy to do on an SUV.
For the CB antenna, optimum ground plane is going to be about 9 feet, so that's not going to happen on any road legal vehicle, so you just make sure you provide the most you can.
Separation between antennas depends on a whole lot of variables, so there isn't one answer that applies to every install. Best thing you can do is give them as much space as you can, while retaining as much ground plane as possible.

So which would you consider to be more important, antenna length or being able to “complete” your ground plane? That is to say, that antenna you suggested above is 19” which I’m perfectly ok with going bigger on my Jeep since I’m already going to have at least 40-something inches or more in the CB antenna. But with the 1/4 wave I can easily complete that ground plane in all directions, whereas going with a larger 1/2 or 5/8 wave antenna is going to make it a little more difficult to get that completed ground plane. So which would you prioritize there? I know I mentioned 1/4 wave in my original post because of mountains and what not, but if you think a different approach would be better I’m all ears. I will likely just try to maximize the ground plane with the VHF/UHF antenna and with the CB I’ll move it forward a little bit still keep it to the rear. It’s mostly an interstate tool and I’ll be using it more for what’s directly ahead of me so forward ground plane is more important there.

 

[mmckenna]

But with the 1/4 wave I can easily complete that ground plane in all directions, whereas going with a larger 1/2 or 5/8 wave antenna is going to make it a little more difficult to get that completed ground plane. So which would you prioritize there? I know I mentioned 1/4 wave in my original post because of mountains and what not, but if you think a different approach would be better I’m all ears. I will likely just try to maximize the ground plane with the VHF/UHF antenna and with the CB I’ll move it forward a little bit still keep it to the rear. It’s mostly an interstate tool and I’ll be using it more for what’s directly ahead of me so forward ground plane is more important there.

Doesn't matter if you are using a 1/4 wave, 1/2 wave or 5/8 wave antenna, the ground plane requirements are still the same, minimum of 1/4 wavelength under the antenna. So, no matter what 2 meter/70 centimeter antenna you choose, the set up will be the same. Just keep it 19" from any edge of the roof and you'll be fine. In fact, not only will you be fine, you'll be miles ahead of what most hobbyists do.

 

[N4DJC]

A 1/4 wave will do a decent job. There are plenty of repeaters in the area. The 146.61 is a wide area repeater mounted on the WYFF tower on Caesars Head at 3500 feet. If your talking about the pair at AnMed they are both linked repeaters with coverage over a lot of the state.

 

[WB9YBM]

My Grand Cherokee, however, will be on there permanently. So I need to know what antennas you guys would recommend. We live in a fairly mountainous area so when we do get licensed and start communicating through repeaters, most of them are high up on mountains.

Without being able to draw this out graphically it's a bit hard to adequately describe this, so please bare with me as I try, Imagine an antenna being the core of an apple; slice the apple along the core and the radiation pattern looks like the apple when the antenna is a 1/4-wave--i.e. your signal radiating in an almost-circular pattern.

"Gain" antennas take increasing slices off of the top of the apple and add this as extra range off to the side. So a 1/4-wave is good in that it radiates upwards (towards the tops of nearby buildings where repeaters are located) almost as well as it radiates off to the sides (towards lower buildings, and other stations nearer to ground level).

On the other end of the scale is a 5/8-wave: relatively less signal going upward, with the majority radiating towards the horizon--great if you've got very little ground clutter and want to reach towards the horizon (i.e. maximum horizontal range & minimum vertical range).

Antennas like 1/2-wave, /8-wave, etc. are somewhere between those two extremes. So if you've got got get your signal out of a valley, something like a 1/4-wave or 1/2-wave would most likely be your best bet. On the other hand if you're on top of a hill/mountain, a 5/8-wave would be the best bet to get you to an adjacent mountain.

The ARRL has some antenna references that will probably explain this better with actual graphics...

 

[AK9R]

Here's an image that might help. It's red, so it ties into your apple example.

 

[cmdrwill]

Image, part of the Antenna 102 class.