New Equipment new HAM Operator

[krokus]

Have you considered the 6m band? It has a mix of HF & VHF propagation aspects. It might provide a more reliable connection at that distance.

 

[GalaxyMule]

Hi... Sorry for the delay...


my best analogy for Troposcatter, is that if you look at the really high power searchlights that are used to advertise various things (car dealership sales and such) , the beam sweeping across the sky is visible even though you aren't line of sight with the transmitter... Just think of radio waves instead of light.

Another analogy is when looking at the sky when approaching a city, you can usually see the sky being brighter because of all of the light that is being bounced around in the atmosphere, even though you aren't able to see the city itself yet.

NVIS depends on the upper atmosphere being ionized, and the frequencies that you can use change both between day and night (usually), and what the sun has been doing, sometimes it just isn't possible to use NVIS.

When you plan your system, give yourself a few Db extra gain to make up for unforeseen problems.

I hope it helps.

Thanks
Joel

Makes sense, good analogy. Yeah, I do understand it is mostly reflected power with a very poor power factor. Just seemed pretty practical.

Have you considered the 6m band? It has a mix of HF & VHF propagation aspects. It might provide a more reliable connection at that distance.

I haven't begun to explore the 6m band yet no. I will look into this more, is the hardware less costly to break into the band?

 

[MUTNAV]

Makes sense, good analogy. Yeah, I do understand it is mostly reflected power with a very poor power factor. Just seemed pretty practical.

It is practical, Just try and give yourself a little margin for good performance. Not TOO much though, a super duper large antenna or array of antennas will actually lower performance.

Also... Keep in mind that the power is "scattered" which means that as long as everyone is seeing the same area where the scattering happens, it's good (more applicable when there are more than two stations wanting to communicate with each other.

AND you both need radios that can do SSB.

Please keep us informed of your progress ! !

Thanks
Joel

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.
.
Oh my Goodness !

Poor Galaxy Mule (love that name btw !) ---you just wants to talk to your family 150 miles away--- and people are suggesting such exotic's as high power UHF sideband, tropo ducting, maybe even scatter ( like the White Alice networks of the Cold War- era DEW Line, maybe ?? )

So, I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this pot .

--------------------

First off, as a simple network of just you and your parents, sans any repeater system (150 miles even with a good repeater is iffy)-- forget V/UHF.
Yes, as you all gain experience and sink lots of money into the project, scatter, tropo, brute force stuff--- heck, even satellites and moonbounce are possible, but Honey, right now forget those venues. You and your family all need to get General Class licenses and think High Frequency radios.

___________________________________________


For years I and colleagues have set up HF stations for work situations all over the world. They are easy and very effective if you just pay attention to some details.

Like -- modes?----------- 150 miles ? Use Sideband
frequencies ? -----150 miles ? easy peasy-- you can cover that day or night with 60 meters, though any frequency between 1.8 to 8MHz will work fine. Professionally we used the 5 and 8 MHZ bands all the time with virtually a 100% assurance we could talk anywhere within a 600 mile radius.
antenna(s)------- at these frequencies you can use low elevation terminated long wires, or terminated folded dipoles (TFD) for
near vertical wave (NVIS) - they are very simple antennas, though not the most efficient- they are practically fool proof and work 'right out of the box' (no tuning necessary.) I have thrown dozens of them up- from guy'd 20 foot masts planted in snow at the Poles to palm trees in the pacific--and they always worked.

____________________________________________


An aside-
Today I regularly chat with girl friends on 40 or 60 meters. I am in central Colorado, one is in New Mexico, the other southern Utah. The circuit is 100%, --day or night... we use 100 Watts; I have a 25 foot loaded vertical antenna, - they use TFD's.

_____________________________________________


I think your biggest challenge would be getting everyone on HF---ie: everybody getting General Class licenses. The stations will set up easily. Just keep it all simple

Good luck Cowboy, and continue to ask questions--- Heaven know, there are plenty of ideas out here ! .



Lauri




.



part of the "White Alice" 900MHz , zillion-watt scatter system (defunct)


(Note the two antennas - for perfect fade free diversity reception !......... this system covered hundreds of miles over the horizon)

 

[MUTNAV]

Well yeah.... Thats A way to do it also...

Thanks
Joel

 

[krokus]

I haven't begun to explore the 6m band yet no. I will look into this more, is the hardware less costly to break into the band?

Not sure about less costly, as most modern HF rigs come with 6m capability. The antennas are smaller/shorter than HF, but a little larger than higher frequency VHF.

There is no 100% guaranteed way to do what you seek; you have to decide your cost vs. reliability limit. Lauri's suggestion is good, but keep in mind that those lower end HF freqs are the first to get wiped out by solar storm activity, and you are out of ground wave coverage.

 

[mass-man]

This has been quite the read....
Go HF...only one of your parents has to have the General class license and be in the room while the non licensed parent is operating...the control operator concept talked about in the General class exam.

100w and dipoles at a reasonable height and you are good to go...it will take some trial and error to find a good freq to use, but that is half the fun.

 

[GalaxyMule]

.
.
Oh my Goodness !

Poor Galaxy Mule (love that name btw !) ---you just wants to talk to your family 150 miles away--- and people are suggesting such exotic's as high power UHF sideband, tropo ducting, maybe even scatter ( like the White Alice networks of the Cold War- era DEW Line, maybe ?? )

So, I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this pot .

--------------------

First off, as a simple network of just you and your parents, sans any repeater system (150 miles even with a good repeater is iffy)-- forget V/UHF.
Yes, as you all gain experience and sink lots of money into the project, scatter, tropo, brute force stuff--- heck, even satellites and moonbounce are possible, but Honey, right now forget those venues. You and your family all need to get General Class licenses and think High Frequency radios.

___________________________________________


For years I and colleagues have set up HF stations for work situations all over the world. They are easy and very effective if you just pay attention to some details.

Like -- modes?----------- 150 miles ? Use Sideband
frequencies ? -----150 miles ? easy peasy-- you can cover that day or night with 60 meters, though any frequency between 1.8 to 8MHz will work fine. Professionally we used the 5 and 8 MHZ bands all the time with virtually a 100% assurance we could talk anywhere within a 600 mile radius.
antenna(s)------- at these frequencies you can use low elevation terminated long wires, or terminated folded dipoles (TFD) for
near vertical wave (NVIS) - they are very simple antennas, though not the most efficient- they are practically fool proof and work 'right out of the box' (no tuning necessary.) I have thrown dozens of them up- from guy'd 20 foot masts planted in snow at the Poles to palm trees in the pacific--and they always worked.

____________________________________________


An aside-
Today I regularly chat with girl friends on 40 or 60 meters. I am in central Colorado, one is in New Mexico, the other southern Utah. The circuit is 100%, --day or night... we use 100 Watts; I have a 25 foot loaded vertical antenna, - they use TFD's.

_____________________________________________


I think your biggest challenge would be getting everyone on HF---ie: everybody getting General Class licenses. The stations will set up easily. Just keep it all simple

Good luck Cowboy, and continue to ask questions--- Heaven know, there are plenty of ideas out here ! .



Lauri




.View attachment 119404



part of the "White Alice" 900MHz , zillion-watt scatter system (defunct)


(Note the two antennas - for perfect fade free diversity reception !......... this system covered hundreds of miles over the horizon)


View attachment 119405

Lauri,
That is a great read, thanks for all the advice. That seems like a very plausible answer. It also sounds a lot like what I am trying to accomplish.

Not sure about less costly, as most modern HF rigs come with 6m capability. The antennas are smaller/shorter than HF, but a little larger than higher frequency VHF.

There is no 100% guaranteed way to do what you seek; you have to decide your cost vs. reliability limit. Lauri's suggestion is good, but keep in mind that those lower end HF freqs are the first to get wiped out by solar storm activity, and you are out of ground wave coverage.

Krokus,
Sounds like I need to learn more about solar storm activity. This may be my next deep dive on the research side.

This has been quite the read....
Go HF...only one of your parents has to have the General class license and be in the room while the non licensed parent is operating...the control operator concept talked about in the General class exam.

100w and dipoles at a reasonable height and you are good to go...it will take some trial and error to find a good freq to use, but that is half the fun.

mass-man,
This really has been some very stimulating reading material. I have definitely been more inspired to use my HAM license and honestly learn a lot more about the capabilities. Also, makes me want to create some side projects using SDR's for HAM but not ready for that just yet.

Thanks Everyone,
Galaxy Mule

 

[jwt873]

Just as a point of interest... Ham is a word, not an acronym which is created by using the first letters of the words making up a phrase... By convention, acronyms are capitalized to let the reader know that each letter has a meaning. Like CB (Citizens Band), FRS (Family Radio Service), MURS (Multi Use Radio Service), FCC (Federal Communications Commission), SWL (Short Wave Listener) VHF (Very High Frequency) etc..
Unlike other radio services, ham is not an acronym it's a word. Ham is an informal nickname used to describe people licensed under the "Amateur Radio Service". Amateur radio operator are hams. They use ham radios.

And a bit of history. -- The word ham has been used for over a century to describe amateur radio operators.
The American Radio Relay League has a short story here. What is Ham Radio (Scroll down to the very bottom --Why are Amateur Radio Operators also called Hams)?

Here is a link to the HTML version of the book that the ARRL refers to in their article.

Dodge: The Telegraph Instructor

If you look in the "definitions of technical terms part of the the document, you'll see:

Ham- (see plug)
Plug- A telegraph operator who is not proficient.

(You can look these up using the CTRL-F key combination. Seach for Ham- or Plug- (Use the dash at the end)

So, at over 100 years ago, the name ham was conferred upon amateur radio operators of the day as an insult. And, it has stuck ever since.

I have no idea how the word became capitalized. It was lower case exclusively in most amateur publications of the past. (Up to about 1980). I suspect people see letters used to describe various radios (FRS, GMRS, CB) and assume that the 'ham' in ham radio should also be capitalized to somehow fit.. So now, many people do this even though they have no clue as to what the letters mean.

 

[wyShack]

Ok are we talking mobile or base to base? If base to base over fairly flat ground, 130 miles is normal for 2 meter SSB with antennas at about 30 feet and 50 watts or so. 6 meters would also work. If you upgrade to General, that would be easy on 40 meters anytime and 75 meters at night.

On 2 meter SSB, it would be weak but if the terrain allows, you could move off the calling channel and basically have a private channel-not many users on 2 meters SSB.

There is also things like 2 meter DMR if both areas have a DMR repeater.
73

 

[MUTNAV]

It doesn't have to be too flat for troposcatter, just have a common scattering volume...

You could of course try EVERYTHING, and get 2 ham transceivers that do 160 meter to 70 cm... then work out what works best with various antennas... Antennas are the favorite plaything of hams.

Thanks
Joel

 

[k7ng]

150 miles on HF isn't too hard, other than perhaps finding a clear enough frequency.
NVIS isn't an exotic mode, just putting your signal (almost) straight up rather than toward the horizon. Not hard, in fact, easy - you don't have to get your fragile body so high in the air to erect an antenna!
As said before... only takes a General Class license and pretty much any HF transceiver that suits you.

 

[prima19rider]

DStar and or fusion but when the grid goes down will not work the same. look into JS8Call. will doe what you need. so will olivia or the PSK modes.