Newbie-ish question: Digital

[Casi7]

Hello,

Please help this newbie (me) if at all possible with these two questions.

1) Is Digital more secure than Analog in terms of jamming or hijacking a repeater?

2) If the answer to that is ‘it depends’ are some digital platforms more secure than others? In other words, is System Fusion more secure than DSTAR, etc?

I’m asking because I’m solely dependent on repeaters at the moment (currently studying for General) and I keep hearing about how easy it is to jam up or take down a repeater. If I switch over to team digital, does that offer any advantages in terms of repeater availability during poo hit fan scenarios?

Thanks for any advice on this.

 

[AK9R]

Any transmitter, no matter what mode it is transmitting, can block the input of a repeater. If you transmitting using System Fusion on the input of a D-STAR repeater, the repeater would still be interfered with.

 

[Casi7]

Any transmitter, no matter what mode it is transmitting, can block the input of a repeater. If you transmitting using System Fusion on the input of a D-STAR repeater, the repeater would still be interfered with.

Thanks. Therefore all repeaters can be jammed and all types are at equal risk. Thats a bummer. And the only way around this is to not be dependent on the availability of repeaters.

Sounds like I need to come up with a better communications plan.

 

[wtp]

kind of serious

if things get hot, all bets are off.
the wife upped it to a .38 in that case.

 

[Casi7]

kind of serious
View attachment 200240
if things get hot, all bets are off.
the wife upped it to a .38 in that case.

I got a .45, now just need some bigger cans.

And a HF radio.

 

[pb_lonny]

What sort of situation are you trying to prepare for?
Who are you planning on talking to?

^ the answers to the above will largely help shape your comms plan.

 

[Casi7]

What sort of situation are you trying to prepare for?
Who are you planning on talking to?

^ the answers to the above will largely help shape your comms plan.

Any situation really… from wireless service going down (which actually happened to me last week, ATT said sorry after not having phone service for three days due to their error) to local/regional SHTF.

Primarily, I’d want to be able to communicate with people within 50 mile radius.

 

[mmckenna]

Any situation really… from wireless service going down (which actually happened to me last week, ATT said sorry after not having phone service for three days due to their error) to local/regional SHTF.

You need to define "SHTF" clearly.
There will -always- be something that can take down communications. If your life depends on communicating, then you have bigger issues that doo doo hitting the fan.

Primarily, I’d want to be able to communicate with people within 50 mile radius.

Someone jamming an amateur radio repeater is always a reality. It doesn't take S hitting the F. There are always a small portion of the ham/hobbyist community that will just do this for fun. And amateur radio repeaters are not always high on the reliability list. Remember, it's amateur radio, hobbyists, limited budget, often cobbled together out of spare parts, or relying on 50 year old retired LMR equipment.

Your option is to have more than one repeater you can use to communicate. It would take someone producing a strong enough signal on the frequencies you are using to jam it. So, have more than one you can use and make sure they are not all sharing the same tower site.

Or use something that isn't easily jammable, like satellite, or more than one cell carrier.
If amateur radio is your thing, consider getting your GMRS license. Add a CB radio. Add in HF capability. Build out a good simplex station.

But make sure you also consider those "other people" in your 50 mile radius. They need to be properly equipped, and that usually means something better than a $20 Chinese radio from Amazon. They also will need to know how to work the equipment, and how to adapt when one means of communications goes down.

 

[pb_lonny]

I’d push back on the repeater idea a bit, because in most real SHTF scenarios, they’re one of the first things to become unreliable.

Repeaters depend on power, site access, and maintenance. Even well-backed-up ones can go down if there’s a prolonged outage, site access issue, or network dependency. And if things are truly chaotic, they can also get congested fast or be deliberately disabled.

If your goal is ~50 miles, you’re better off planning for simplex and self-reliant comms first, then treating repeaters as a bonus if they’re still up.

Something like:

• UHF/VHF simplex with good antennas (height matters more than power)
• Pre-agreed frequencies and schedules with your group
• A mix of fixed and mobile stations
• Maybe a portable mast or even improvised elevation (roof, hill, etc.)

For that kind of range, you can realistically get there with:

• Elevated base stations at each end, or
• One well-placed high station acting as a relay (not a repeater, just someone retransmitting)

Also worth thinking about:

• Power independence (batteries, solar, vehicle setups)
• Practicing now, not just owning the gear
• Keeping it simple under stress

Repeaters are great in day-to-day use, but in a failure scenario they’re a convenience, not a foundation.

 

[Casi7]

You need to define "SHTF" clearly.
There will -always- be something that can take down communications. If your life depends on communicating, then you have bigger issues that doo doo hitting the fan.



Someone jamming an amateur radio repeater is always a reality. It doesn't take S hitting the F. There are always a small portion of the ham/hobbyist community that will just do this for fun. And amateur radio repeaters are not always high on the reliability list. Remember, it's amateur radio, hobbyists, limited budget, often cobbled together out of spare parts, or relying on 50 year old retired LMR equipment.

Your option is to have more than one repeater you can use to communicate. It would take someone producing a strong enough signal on the frequencies you are using to jam it. So, have more than one you can use and make sure they are not all sharing the same tower site.

Or use something that isn't easily jammable, like satellite, or more than one cell carrier.
If amateur radio is your thing, consider getting your GMRS license. Add a CB radio. Add in HF capability. Build out a good simplex station.

But make sure you also consider those "other people" in your 50 mile radius. They need to be properly equipped, and that usually means something better than a $20 Chinese radio from Amazon. They also will need to know how to work the equipment, and how to adapt when one means of communications goes down.

I have a GMRS license and I have a few HAM repeaters that I can reach from my home. My concern is not daily trivial jamming by hobbyists; that does not meet my definition of SHTF. My concern is with regard to this behavior when there are no other communication methods during a local incident. However, the result is the same: a non-functional repeater.

My initial question was about whether digital was more secure than analog. Apparently it is not but my new HT with digital modes is still fun to use so all is not lost.

 

[Casi7]

I’d push back on the repeater idea a bit, because in most real SHTF scenarios, they’re one of the first things to become unreliable.

Repeaters depend on power, site access, and maintenance. Even well-backed-up ones can go down if there’s a prolonged outage, site access issue, or network dependency. And if things are truly chaotic, they can also get congested fast or be deliberately disabled.

If your goal is ~50 miles, you’re better off planning for simplex and self-reliant comms first, then treating repeaters as a bonus if they’re still up.

Something like:

• UHF/VHF simplex with good antennas (height matters more than power)
• Pre-agreed frequencies and schedules with your group
• A mix of fixed and mobile stations
• Maybe a portable mast or even improvised elevation (roof, hill, etc.)

For that kind of range, you can realistically get there with:

• Elevated base stations at each end, or
• One well-placed high station acting as a relay (not a repeater, just someone retransmitting)

Also worth thinking about:

• Power independence (batteries, solar, vehicle setups)
• Practicing now, not just owning the gear
• Keeping it simple under stress

Repeaters are great in day-to-day use, but in a failure scenario they’re a convenience, not a foundation.

Excellent points.

Right now, I’m chocked full of HTs… but nothing more than 10 watts.

 

[mmckenna]

I have a GMRS license and I have a few HAM repeaters that I can reach from my home. My concern is not daily trivial jamming by hobbyists; that does not meet my definition of SHTF. My concern is with regard to this behavior when there are no other communication methods during a local incident. However, the result is the same: a non-functional repeater.

This is why "SHTF" needs to be well defined.

Repeaters can be made reliable. But I wouldn't count on hobbyists to do that unless there are some deep pockets involved. Repeaters can be made to not rely on utility power. I've got several at work that are 100% solar and are on mountain tops that get visited a few times a year. Hurricane force winds, snow, ice, lightning, or wild land fires haven't taken them out.

If all you have is 2 meter/70cm, then 50 miles without repeaters is going to be a challenge, unless you live on a mountaintop. Simplex alone isn't going to solve that unless you have a very tall tower, and many "SHTF" incidents are not going to be kind to a hobby grade tower.

Point to point, 50 miles, you are going to be relying on skip from lower frequencies, but relying on skip is kind of like trusting a taco bell fart. You might get lucky, you might not. The other option is NVIS antennas and HF radios on each end. That's your 'no infrastructure' solution for hobby radio. But there's a lot that can go wrong with antennas like that, or atmospheric issues, and it needs an operator with some skill, knowledge and lots of practice to pick the right bands based on the time of day. NVIS is what many government agencies use for this sort of situation. Not cheap, but with the right tools, it'll work.

My initial question was about whether digital was more secure than analog. Apparently it is not but my new HT with digital modes is still fun to use so all is not lost.

Digital can be more secure in the way of controlling repeater access. Amateur radio/GMRS limits what you can do, though. And as stated, a strong transmitter can jam the RF side and make it unusable. But someone jamming all the repeaters all the time is going to take more work than your average cranky ham is willing to put into it.

You've got ham radio and GMRS. Add a cell phone and make sure it's one that will do satellite text messaging. If you want to invest in it, go HF with NVIS antennas, or something like Starlink. That's going to cover you in damn near every situation. It's unlikely that anything is going to take down all those systems at the exact same time, and you'd still be alive and wanting to chat with your friends.

If maintaining communications is the goal, you need more than a few CCR's. It's not going to be cheap, but it's entirely possible.

 

[nd5y]

Primarily, I’d want to be able to communicate with people within 50 mile radius.

Why 50 miles? Why not 1 or 100 miles?

 

[AK9R]

Emergency planners talk about developing a PACE plan for communications:
Primary -- the best method of communications that you routinely use every day, might be your cell phone
Alternate -- another common, but less optimal method of communications, might be a pre-paid cell phone on a different network
Contingency -- a method that may not be fast, convenient, or reliable, but can accomplish the task, might be using a handheld radio to access a GMRS or amateur radio VHF/UHF repeater
Emergency -- communication method of last resort, might be HF amateur radio

The "mights" in the above list are just suggestions. Everybody's PACE plan will be different.

And, once you develop your PACE plan, you have to practice with it. Don't expect that you can just put that alternate cell phone or GMRS handheld in a drawer, out of sight, out of mind, and still be able to pull it out and make it work after you've exhausted your Primary and Alternate communications methods. You have to keep batteries charged, firmware updated, and everything tested on a regular basis.

The U.S. Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Security Agency has a document about PACE plans that you can download here: Leveraging the PACE Plan into the Emergency Communications Ecosystem | CISA Or, a little searching on the web will provide other resources.

 

[Casi7]

Emergency planners talk about developing a PACE plan for communications:
Primary -- the best method of communications that you routinely use every day, might be your cell phone
Alternate -- another common, but less optimal method of communications, might be a pre-paid cell phone on a different network
Contingency -- a method that may not be fast, convenient, or reliable, but can accomplish the task, might be using a handheld radio to access a GMRS or amateur radio VHF/UHF repeater
Emergency -- communication method of last resort, might be HF amateur radio

The "mights" in the above list are just suggestions. Everybody's PACE plan will be different.

And, once you develop your PACE plan, you have to practice with it. Don't expect that you can just put that alternate cell phone or GMRS handheld in a drawer, out of sight, out of mind, and still be able to pull it out and make it work after you've exhausted your Primary and Alternate communications methods. You have to keep batteries charged, firmware updated, and everything tested on a regular basis.

The U.S. Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Security Agency has a document about PACE plans that you can download here: Leveraging the PACE Plan into the Emergency Communications Ecosystem | CISA Or, a little searching on the web will provide other resources.

Yup, I’ve got one of those plans … that’s actually how I ended up in HAM radio land. My cell phone failed at the first tier so I went head first into radio. I’ve been practicing my radio use for the past year.

 

[Casi7]

Why 50 miles? Why not 1 or 100 miles?

50 miles is my priority area because 1) that’s where my immediate group is located and 2) that’s what my current equipment is capable of if stretched.100 miles would be good too but that’s outside of my current equipment limits.

I do like listening to 40m though. After I get my General, I will start looking into getting a decent HF radio. That will make me less dependent on repeaters.

 

[K9KLC]

Right now, I’m chocked full of HTs… but nothing more than 10 watts.

How are you talking 50 miles on a HT? I'm guessing a repeater is involved?

 

[Casi7]

How are you talking 50 miles on a HT? I'm guessing a repeater is involved?

Yup… I can get close to 50 but not the best TX at 50, starts getting scratchy at the exact mark.

Gotta have a good HT, a rat tail, a good antenna, find a repeater at the highest height or find a local hill.

Also depends on if there’s clear line of sight.

 

[K9KLC]

Yup… I can get close to 50 but not the best TX at 50, starts getting scratchy at the exact mark.

Gotta have a good HT, a rat tail, a good antenna, find a repeater at the highest height or find a local hill.

Also depends on if there’s clear line of sight.

Ok so you're using a repeater, not simplex.(only one radio to another one no repeater). Ya that's different. I don't count on repeaters if something goes wrong neither should you. As far as if a phone system goes down in my book that's not SHTF, that's a simple technology glitch. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Hit_Factor]

50 miles is my priority area because 1) that’s where my immediate group is located and 2) that’s what my current equipment is capable of if stretched.100 miles would be good too but that’s outside of my current equipment limits.

I do like listening to 40m though. After I get my General, I will start looking into getting a decent HF radio. That will make me less dependent on repeaters.

And more dependent on weather here and on the sun.