Newbie question on MOT Type I vs Type II Fleets/Group ID's

[dondraper40]

Ok, uploaded several counties of data around Atlanta, GA using ScanCat and free files from Nat-Com.org into a Pro-95. It got the frequencies and ID's loaded but I could still not follow trunked groups (No VC - Voice Channel displayed) and low beep when pressing Trunk button.

Later, I discovered Win95 (much more usable and intuitive) and got the trunking working by changing the mode to MOT from FM next to all trunked frequencies (was this right?). Now some talk groups will display the numbers (or fleet-subfleet) numbers an I can "hold" on to a group on a trunked frequency! I was looking for a tall building to jump off of when this little bit of success changed my mind.

Most of the counties in the area appear to have trunked systems that have both Type I fleet/subfleet numbers and Type II GIDs. Is there anyway to use both of these in the same bank? If I set a Type I fleet map such as E1P1, then I get some XXX-XX numbers but none match what is programmed from Nat-Com. If I remove the fleet-map, then I get the 4 or 5 digit numbers and some match the text tag values but not all. Since the data files have a mixture of both, how I can get ALL of the Text tags on ALL groups/subfleets to display? Is there anyway to convert type I fleet numbers to the other format or vice-versa? Am I able to still hear all groups or subfleets regardless of how it is set?....and only the displayed numbers are changed?

Finally, does anyone have any Win95 files for the Atlanta area that are relatively accurate? And where is the most updated source for these values? The RR database looks pretty current but I still see numbers coming in on my scanner that displays numbers not in the trunked ID's listing for that county.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Don (dazed and confused)

 

[loumaag]

Don,
First let me welcome you to the site. I am glad that you have done some research in advance of posting your question. It really helps. What I don't understand is why you might think the data at Nat-Com.org is any better or more current than the data here on RR.com. By the way, how can you say they are free? You have to have an subscription to get the files, but that is another topic.

Although you didn't say what you were trying to listen to, I am guessing it is the Fulton County Pub Service TRS. If that is so, use the fleetmap as posted on the site here. There is no preset uniden style fleetmap that will fit it. (What a waste of time those things are!) Just set each window in your Win95 program to match the blocks as shown on the site here.

I am pretty sure that the Atlanta area data here on the site is a lot more up to date than any where else you are going to find. Especially for that system.

 

[Voyager]

Don,
There is no preset uniden style fleetmap that will fit it. (What a waste of time those things are!)

Before Nextel bought and shut off most of the business SMRs, there were MANY systems throughout the country that used the preset fleetmaps. It's a throwback to the first generation trunked scanners. I do agree that today, they are of little use. Of course, with all the newer systems being strictly type II, and the aforementioned demise of most of the business SMRs (which were almost all type I), fleetmaps themselves have their days numbered. 8)

Joe M.

 

[dondraper40]

Thanks for the assistance. I will try what you suggested and post the results here. Yes, Fulton county is the primary one I am listening to. Since I live in the upper right corner of Fulton, I can also get Gwinett and Forsyth and I work in Dekalb. So lots to program .

I did not mean to imply other data was better than Radio Reference. In fact, RR is definetly the best I have come across and appears to have the most current data and so well laid out. I am a software developer and was getting disappointed in my search results until finding RR.

I am still unclear on the following: If I get the correct fleet map prorammed, will I still be able to recieve (and if yes, identify via the Talkgroup ID text tags) the Type II (4 or 5 digit IDs) on the SAME BANK... or... should I separate Type I and Type II into separate banks?

Right now I was trying to place a county into each bank so as I go move around town I can quicky turn on and off the appropriate areas. Then perhaps place fire and medical ID's into separate sub-banks from less attractive things like WATER or PARKS & REC. Does this make sense?

I am under the current assumption that if I setup a fleet map in a particular bank Win95, that I will only be able to receive the Type I (xxx-xx) fleets and not recieve any Type II talkgroups because it cannot recognize the ID number. Is this accurate?

Thanks again for your help. I am really enjoying the scanner so far. When I was in high school in early 70's, we had CD radios and 8 channel scanners that used crystals. Since I am a technology gadget guy with all the gadgets, my wife though of one I did not have. She purchased a Pro-94 but let me exchange for the Pro95 since I was pretty sure the computer interface would payoff. .

 

[loumaag]

Don,
Yes, if you set the fleet map according to the chart contained here on the site, the Type II TG's will appear as expected. Note that blocks 5, 6 & 7 are all marked as Type II blocks whereas blocks 0-4 are all given Type I size codes. As a point of information, even a entire Type II system still has these blocks, they just are all set to Type II, which is the default on all scanners, hence the reason you don't need to worry about setting them. Take a look here on the home page of the site and click on the link (left frame) the will lead to Trunking Information. You can drill down to a pretty good overview of the Motorola way of fleetmap programming.

Joe,
I was referring to this system when I said there was "no" preset which would work. There are, as you point out, many systems out there that these presets work with; but I will stand by my statement that they have never been worth the effort to use them. They were just one more thing to learn that was of little use. It was always easier (IMHO) to just set the 8 blocks properly instead of trying to figure out what preset fit what system fleetmap.

 

[INDY72]

Hey Lou,... I for one am soo glad the days of true Type I's is almost over.. they were such a headache to figure out....

There is I think still one grandfathered Type I SMR in MS, that is about to be kicked into the iDen age.... Will be sorry to not be able to listen to the cabbies talking on it... but thats how life goes... (I was just figuring it out completely and going to post the info on the db,.. but they will be switching to the iDen by May, so that killed that lol... wish I had figured it out back when I was getting the original City of Madison Type I figured out, and blocking the City of Jackson's EDACS into proper LCN order... )

 

[click23]

Don,

I took a trip to Atlanta early last year and programmed my scanner with the systems in that area with win95. When I get home tonight to see if I still have the file and sent it to you, if you would like. Some talkgroups have been added since then, but it will give you a place to start. Also if you have Excel you can copy and paste from a website into Excel then sort and edit anything you wish then copy and past into win95. With Corel’s Quattro Pro, it doesn't work as easy, it doesn’t like to paste into columns from a webpage.


Robert

 

[dondraper40]

Lou,

Thanks very much! I am slowly but steadily figuring this out with your help. Looking back at the Win95 app, I see that the all the blocks are set to Type II as default. When I begin to change some of the blocks to match the fleet-map, I notice that Win95 changes the formats of the digits in certain locations. That leads to the next question:

Is there any relationship between the block positions and where I place type I vs Type II numbers in the sub-banks?

Can I mix xxxxx talkgroup IDs with xxx-xx ID's in the same sub-bank or do they have to be separated or placed in specific slots?

Please bear with me as all of this making more sense every day. Really appreciate your assistance. I really want to learn the scanner so I can use it to the full extent rather than just take what it gives me.

-Don

 

[nd5y]

I wish I could figure out the Dallas, TX local government system.
The fleet map listed in RRDB appears to be bad now.
As far as I can tell there are only talkgroups in blocks 0, 1, and 6.
There are some IDs listed here in block 7 but I have never heard them.
There appears to be both type I & II IDs in block 1. Is this even possible?


Tom

 

[loumaag]

Is there any relationship between the block positions and where I place type I vs Type II numbers in the sub-banks?

Can I mix xxxxx talkgroup IDs with xxx-xx ID's in the same sub-bank or do they have to be separated or placed in specific slots?

No, Yes. :lol:
In your scanner there is no relationship between where you program your TG ID's and scan bank. So, yes, you can put both Type I and Type II ID's in the same scan bank.

The, block positions deal with a number count. Motorola Type I or Type II systems are limited (not much of a limit I will grant you) to a maximum of some 4000 talk groups. Type II TG#'s 16 through 8176 (although in practice 8176 is normally not used) would all fit in Block 0 of the fleetmap. If you look at this page and scroll to the bottom, you will see the fleet sizes and maximum number of radios that can be assigned per Type I fleetmaps.

 

[loumaag]

There appears to be both type I & II IDs in block 1. Is this even possible?

Tom,
You know the Lafayette Louisiana system (until just recently) had a mix of Type I radios on what appeared to be a Type II Block. I am not sure how it was done, but to monitor it and keep it straight, it was required to put it into two seperate banks and run them in "closed mode" (assuming GRE type scanning) with the proper either Type I fleetmap and codes in one and the the Type II & TG's in the other. :?

 

[nd5y]

They must be doing the same thing here.
The weird thing is one department seems to have changed from type II
to type I.

Tom

 

[Voyager]

Don,
Joe,
I was referring to this system when I said there was "no" preset which would work. There are, as you point out, many systems out there that these presets work with; but I will stand by my statement that they have never been worth the effort to use them. They were just one more thing to learn that was of little use. It was always easier (IMHO) to just set the 8 blocks properly instead of trying to figure out what preset fit what system fleetmap.

Lou,

I was responding you your comment of "What a waste of time those things are!"

I stand by my statement that there USED to be a lot of systems that did use them all over the USA. I conceeded in my reply that anymore they are of little use.

If those systems were still in use, it would have been much easier to say 'use preset x' than explain how to program the 8 blocks.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

There appears to be both type I & II IDs in block 1. Is this even possible?

Yes, it is. There is a system in Pittsburgh that uses one block for both type I and type II IDs. As was mentioned, you have to program that system in two banks (or two systems) in trunking scanners.

The system programmer can divide the block in the system controller. As this is so rare, scanners didn't bother supporting it, and despite the fact that I listen to that system, I agree with their decision.

Joe M.