NEXEDGE information

[DJD565]

We are a medium sized EMS agency in a rural/suburban area. We currently operate on UHF Analog with 2 sites/freq pairs. One for Dispatch, one for Operations. Most other agencies in our area use Analog UHF as well, there is one on VHF.

Our Operations repeater is a Kenwood (unsure of the model, I will try to find out) that is cable of and set to operate in Mixed Mode. This was done as we are planning to move to digital and wanted to have some infrastructure in place as budget allowed and so we could do some preliminary testing.

We are now beginning to plan for converting our system to Digital. It can't be done in one budget cycle for sure, so we would need to continue to operate in Analog for a while until all the equipment is purchased.

I have some questions:
- How brand locked are we with Kenwood? My understanding is that NXDN is a fairly open standard-- what would prevent us from using, say, Icom versus Kenwood, or perhaps a mix? There are no current plans from a county-wide/multi-jurisdictional perspective for any system consolidation, trunking, or P25, but I personally don't rule that out in the coming years.

- The built in GPS in the TK-5000 series units is attractive, especially for our Special Operations and SAR teams. What is required to utilize this technology with a mapping system? How does it integrate into the radio's use?-- with every PTT? On intervals? Both? Is the location and PTT ID embedded in the voice signal simultaneously?

- Are the TK or NX radios capable of MDC signalling?

- We are planning to do away with our analog two-tone pagers-- I assume a zone or channel can be set up for two tone decoding like a pager?

- Other agencies in our county also use conventional analog UHF-- would keeping our repeaters in mixed mode still allow interoperability with these agencies if needed?

-NX mobiles: I understand there can be multi-rf decks-- can there be multiple control heads as well? Could we have 2 UHF decks 1 VHF deck and two control heads? Are the NX radios GPS capable also?

- I read some information about OTA programming-- what is involved with that? (ie software, infrastructure) Are there restrictions with what you can or can't do, vs direct programming?


Thanks in advance for all the help. We've had discussions with our dealer, but I've not been satisfied with their explanation on some of these topics, and I don't think they've actually seen a system in use.

 

[kd4efm]

Wow, lots to answer. First, Icom and KWD NXDN are cai compliant conventional. Let me answer tonight as I can fill in every question, but need to be on the PC.

Hang tight. I will get back to you.

kd4efm Evans, sent using TapTALK on my HTC M9

 

[mmckenna]

In the mean time, I can help answer some of these. KD4EFM can clarify if I miss something.

I'm running a NexEdge trunked system here at work. 5 channels and almost 400 radios on the system. NexEdge is the Kenwood version of NXDN trunking. The Icom standard is a bit different but there are some ways you can have Kenwood radios on an Icom system and Icom radios on a Kenwood system. Be careful in your planning if you are considering going trunked in the future. You would benefit by sticking with all one radio for several reasons.

I have some questions:
- How brand locked are we with Kenwood? My understanding is that NXDN is a fairly open standard-- what would prevent us from using, say, Icom versus Kenwood, or perhaps a mix? There are no current plans from a county-wide/multi-jurisdictional perspective for any system consolidation, trunking, or P25, but I personally don't rule that out in the coming years.

For non-trunked systems, it's open. There are some variations between the radios that you need to pay attention to. NXDN runs in two different modes. 6.25KHz channels that run about 4800 baud and 12.5KHz channels that run about 9600 baud. You -cannot- mix the two. A radio set to 6.25KHz "Very Narrow NXDN" will NOT receive traffic that is running 12.5KHz "Narrow NXDN". Same with a radio set to 12.5KHz trying to listen to 6.25KHz. Not going to happen. Almost all Kenwood radios will do both 6.25KHz Very Narrow and 12.5KHz Narrow NXDN. The exception is some of the low tier radios. Unlikely you'd be using low tier radios in your application.
Icom is a mix. Many of their radios will only do 6.25KHz Very Narrow NXDN, although my understanding is that some of the newer ones will do both.

As for trunking, SOME of the radios from both manufacturers are cross compatible with the different trunking versions. Some Kenwood's will do the Icom "Type D" trunking standard and some Icom' will do the Kenwood "Type C" trunking. The two trunking standards are different and not compatible, however some of the newer radios from both manufacturers will work with either system. Pay close attention to this when picking your radios.

- The built in GPS in the TK-5000 series units is attractive, especially for our Special Operations and SAR teams. What is required to utilize this technology with a mapping system? How does it integrate into the radio's use?-- with every PTT? On intervals? Both? Is the location and PTT ID embedded in the voice signal simultaneously?

NX-5000 line of radios is probably what you meant.
I think just about all the Kenwood NXDN radios will do GPS. For mobiles there are a couple of different ways of doing it. Some of the newer radios have the GPS receiver built in and you just need an external antenna. Some mobiles need a receiver and antenna.
Portable radios from Kenwood, some have an internal GPS receiver/antenna, some use an external speaker microphone with a GPS in it.
Kenwood sells a KAS-10 software that will take care of the mapping. It'll also do text messaging. On the NX-900's I use, an RS-232 DB-25 cable connects between the back of the radio and the PC.
It'll do GPS location data when the PTT is hit, by interval, when polled, or a combination of those, depends on how you set the radios up. On a conventional system, the GPS data runs over the same voice channel and is mixed in with the voice traffic data packets. On the NexEdge trunked systems, you can set it up to send the GPS data packets over the trunked system control channel. Works well, but I haven't played with it much. I purchased the system, but haven't had much luck selling it to our users. I've used it on my personal truck, but haven't done it in a while.

- Are the TK or NX radios capable of MDC signalling?

Yes. I'm using MDC on our NX-900 mobiles and NX-410 portables. I've got our PD using NX-210 VHF portables in analog mode with MDC.
Only issue I ran across is that Kenwood only allows one MDC system, so you only get one MDC ID per radio, not multiple ID's like some Motorola's will do.

- We are planning to do away with our analog two-tone pagers-- I assume a zone or channel can be set up for two tone decoding like a pager?

The Kenwood's I have will do two tone signaling. Haven't had the need to play with it, but it's in there.

- Other agencies in our county also use conventional analog UHF-- would keeping our repeaters in mixed mode still allow interoperability with these agencies if needed?

Yes, if your repeaters and mobile/portable radios are set up to do mixed mode.

-NX mobiles: I understand there can be multi-rf decks-- can there be multiple control heads as well? Could we have 2 UHF decks 1 VHF deck and two control heads? Are the NX radios GPS capable also?

The NX-5000 line of radios will do up to 3 RF decks with up to 2 control heads. You could theoretically have a dual head radio with VHF, UHF and 700-800MHz. These will also do analog, NXDN Type C trunking (NexEdge) P25 type 1 and 2, and very likely in the near future (maybe end of the year) DMR. You can even install multiple RF decks on the same bands.

- I read some information about OTA programming-- what is involved with that? (ie software, infrastructure) Are there restrictions with what you can or can't do, vs direct programming?

KPG-150, I think is the software. I've got it on our system, and it's more than payed for itself. Best thing I ever did with that system was making sure we had the OTAP function. Really makes it nice to update radios on the fly.
Here's the catch, though:
The update process can take a few minutes per radio. The RF channel will be tied up continuously during that time. You DON'T want to do OTAP over your main dispatch channel. You could do it over your secondary channel.
It works really well on trunked systems since the OTAP uses the control channel. I can OTAP radios all day long on our system without interrupting normal traffic.
You can program everything in the radio using OTAP, no restrictions. You can't (or at least last time I checked) can't do radio firmware updates over OTAP. Unlikely you'd be doing a lot of those, so not a big issue.
The radios have to be turned on (obviously) to do the OTAP, and they have to be set to the right channel on a non-trunked system. You can tell the system to reboot the radio when it's finished, not reboot until the user turns the radio off, or to reboot at a certain time.

Like I said above, I've got almost 400 radios on my system and have been running it for almost 4 years now. I've had very few radio failures, I think 2 or 3 out of the whole system. I've got radios in garbage trucks, police cars, being carried by cops, plumbers, groundskeepers, IT guys, electricians, in our bus fleet, etc... Some of these radios have seen a tough life and have stood up well.

Kenwood support has been very good for me. They are responsive and willing to work with the customer. You'd need to make sure you pick a good dealer, though. That's key. Make sure they have done all this before, and make sure you talk to their customers to get a reference.

 

[kd4efm]

Can't add much more to it than that. I can answer any other hardball question you may have. Thank MM.

kd4efm Evans, sent using TapTALK on my HTC M9

 

[kayn1n32008]

We are a medium sized EMS agency in a rural/suburban area. We currently operate on UHF Analog with 2 sites/freq pairs. One for Dispatch, one for Operations. Most other agencies in our area use Analog UHF as well, there is one on VHF.

I can answer some of your questions.

Our Operations repeater is a Kenwood (unsure of the model, I will try to find out) that is cable of and set to operate in Mixed Mode. This was done as we are planning to move to digital and wanted to have some infrastructure in place as budget allowed and so we could do some preliminary testing.



We are now beginning to plan for converting our system to Digital. It can't be done in one budget cycle for sure, so we would need to continue to operate in Analog for a while until all the equipment is purchased.

My department decided to get new graders rather than update our radio system... I feel the pain!

I have some questions:

- How brand locked are we with Kenwood? My understanding is that NXDN is a fairly open standard-- what would prevent us from using, say, Icom versus Kenwood, or perhaps a mix? There are no current plans from a county-wide/multi-jurisdictional perspective for any system consolidation, trunking, or P25, but I personally don't rule that out in the coming years.

From the NXDN perspective, if you're up operate very narrow NXDN you have two choices. Icom and Kenwood. If you operate narrow NXDN you are locked to Kenwood AFIK. The NX-x00 portables and mobiles can be converted to P25, but will not support both NXDN and P25 operation at the same time. Only the NX-5xxxx mobiles support NXDN and P25 at the same time.

- The built in GPS in the TK-5000 series units is attractive, especially for our Special Operations and SAR teams. What is required to utilize this technology with a mapping system? How does it integrate into the radio's use?-- with every PTT? On intervals? Both? Is the location and PTT ID embedded in the voice signal simultaneously?

I will leave this one, as I do not have an answer.

- Are the TK or NX radios capable of MDC signalling?

Yes. The NX-x00 portables and mobiles do MDC and Fleetsync natively. But only one or the other per zone, and only on analogue channels.

- We are planning to do away with our analog two-tone pagers-- I assume a zone or channel can be set up for two tone decoding like a pager?

Yes, you can do 2-tone on a per channel basis on analogue channels

- Other agencies in our county also use conventional analog UHF-- would keeping our repeaters in mixed mode still allow interoperability with these agencies if needed?

Yes, BUT you would have to have the channels programmed for mixed mode.

-NX mobiles: I understand there can be multi-rf decks-- can there be multiple control heads as well?

Only the NX-5xxx MOBILES support multiple RF decks and multiple control heads.

Could we have 2 UHF decks 1 VHF deck and two control heads?

Not sure why you would need two UHF decks, the two options are 380-470MHz and 450-520MHz. Unless you are in an area that has access to 400-430MHz the single deck should be all you need.

Are the NX radios GPS capable also?

Yes. Not sure what is needed though.

- I read some information about OTA programming-- what is involved with that? (ie software, infrastructure) Are there restrictions with what you can or can't do, vs direct programming?

Not sure, I will let Evan answer that one.

Thanks in advance for all the help. We've had discussions with our dealer, but I've not been satisfied with their explanation on some of these topics, and I don't think they've actually seen a system in use.

Good luck.

I use both the NX-200 and NX-700 and LOVE them. Both narrow and very narrow digital modes sound pretty good.

If you guys engineer it right, and have a dealer that knows what they are doing, and you do not take shortcuts, I think you will be very happy with what you get. Good luck

 

[jim202]

DJD565, I would walk softly here and slowly. Your looking for a system that really needs to be laid out and set up very carefully. I don't generally make a suggestion like this, but with what your looking to do, it might be in the agency's best interest to bring in a good consultant that has worked with these requirements before.

Your much better off to have someone that can steer your agency through all the land mines that will surely develop on trying to go to a radio system like what your asking about. It will take an effort on your part or someone in the agency to develop the 4 corners of a description on just what it is they want to end up with.

Not all consultant companies have a good background or satisfied customer base. Selecting one to support your agency's desires for a radio system should be done with care. Many agencies have been burned by some of the consulting companies they have tried to bring in. The best thing to do at this point is request an RFP from them and see what comes out of the wood work. You could post a request in the APCO web site. It would also depend on what part of the country your in as to which companies would even respond to your request.

Again, the word here is to walk slow and cautiously. Don't close you options on any vendor at this point for the radio equipment.

 

[DJD565]

Thank you to everyone for their detailed replies! It has been very helpful. I can tell we've already had some misinformation from the dealer.

kayn1n: we'd use two UHF decks so we could keep, say, an ambulance cab on a dispatch frequency and the compartment on a hospital frequency, both on UHF, We currently use two separate radios, so I'm not sure yet which would be more friendly or cost effective.

jim202: thanks-- we will probably end up on that route in some form or fashion, but we need some good background to make that even happen-- it's a volunteer agency so we need to get the decision makers on board. The guy in charge of comms is good, but young and a bit inexperienced, a couple of us older heads are helping guide them, but I've never worked with anything quite like this. Your caution is appreciated.

 

[mmckenna]

The NX-x00 series radios will do a dual head configuration, so you could have one RF deck and a control head up front and another in the back. Would save a bit of money, but only one channel at a time.

Other option would be the NX-5000 line of radios. You can do multiple RF decks, including multipe UHF decks, if you wanted, and 2 control heads. Might be the more flexible option. Pretty easy to add a VHF deck or 700-800MHz deck for interoperability.

Cheapest solution would be separate radios. You could put an NX-800 up front, and a lower tier radio, like the NX-820 in the rear.

Dealer should be able to price it out for you.

If funding is available, give a lot of thought to the NX-5000's as they can run P25 down the road if you need it. Might make some sense to purchase that radio now since it could save you having to replace your mobiles down the road if the locals go to P25.

 

[kd4efm]

The NX-x00 series radios will do a dual head configuration, so you could have one RF deck and a control head up front and another in the back. Would save a bit of money, but only one channel at a time.

Other option would be the NX-5000 line of radios. You can do multiple RF decks, including multipe UHF decks, if you wanted, and 2 control heads. Might be the more flexible option. Pretty easy to add a VHF deck or 700-800MHz deck for interoperability.

Cheapest solution would be separate radios. You could put an NX-800 up front, and a lower tier radio, like the NX-820 in the rear.

Dealer should be able to price it out for you.

If funding is available, give a lot of thought to the NX-5000's as they can run P25 down the road if you need it. Might make some sense to purchase that radio now since it could save you having to replace your mobiles down the road if the locals go to P25.

Total agree here with that statement, get it now, add when needed down the road.

EFM

kd4efm Evans, sent using TapTALK on my HTC M9

 

[gesucks]

The new Icom Nexgen IDAS radio released at IWCE will do 6.25 and 12.5 conventional NXDN and both Type C (NEXEDGE) and Type D (IDAS) trunking. I think in those radio you will find they are interchangeable on a Icom or Kenwood system

 

[mmckenna]

The new Icom Nexgen IDAS radio released at IWCE will do 6.25 and 12.5 conventional NXDN and both Type C (NEXEDGE) and Type D (IDAS) trunking. I think in those radio you will find they are interchangeable on a Icom or Kenwood system

Yes, that's true. Icom/Kenwood announced that last year. Some of their radios will do C/D trunking and I know some of the newer Icom's will do 6.25 and 12.5 channels.

Unfortunately the NX-5000 only do C trunking at this time on NXDN. Haven't heard any mention of a D trunking option in the future.

Now if Icom would just enter the 800MHz market, I could give them a try on my system.