NJ Bergen County P25 System (New) with Encryption -

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ScanXO

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ah where are we on this tread....
The county can patch what they have to themselves- they do not have all local towns - they do not patch to towns for alerts
the most/all local towns can not or do not have any 'patch's', so alerts are rebroadcast by the towns to the cars/field units alot of info is relayed by telephone then broadcast locally
In the old days before SPEN the county was the central contact point for alerts/alarms not any more
The county VHF & UHF intersystem labled as a patch to the trunk system was offered to towns to add those channels to thier radios to better corrdinate between each other if they were on different bands - most towns did not add the channels - bears repeating - did not - wont do it ....politics .....so these channels are very quite & never been used by locals its future is unknown
yes its done on the channel they are currently sitting on
 

SCPD

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ah where are we on this tread....
The county can patch what they have to themselves- they do not have all local towns - they do not patch to towns for alerts
the most/all local towns can not or do not have any 'patch's', so alerts are rebroadcast by the towns to the cars/field units alot of info is relayed by telephone then broadcast locally
In the old days before SPEN the county was the central contact point for alerts/alarms not any more
The county VHF & UHF inter-system labeled as a patch to the trunk system was offered to towns to add those channels to their radios to better coordinate between each other if they were on different bands - most towns did not add the channels - bears repeating - did not - wont do it ....politics .....so these channels are very quite & never been used by locals its future is unknown
yes its done on the channel they are currently sitting on

Good point ScanXO!

Victor,

Just to keep it simple here. And SanXO said it best above. Also here is a good wayto monitor;


  • 1st, The local town that you may be in (PD,FD & EMS)
  • 2nd, The VHF SPEN frequency(S) 154.6800
  • 3rd you may also want to monitor the interop talkgroups on the NJ State Police's own Trunk System and / or the Common Shared frequencies in the NJ Database.
I hope this helps you out.


Ken
 

902

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The rest of the story...

There's a lot of historic background in Bergen County and some of what you've asked might be clearer with the background. Many years ago, Bergen County was just above the AM broadcast dial. They eventually settled on 37.38 MHz, where they maintained a Plectron tone alerting system to send messages to other police departments in different zones of the county. Each alert usually consisted of 6 Plectron tones, usually followed by a broadcast centered on someone eloping from Bergen Pines or the JINS (juveniles in need of supervision) shelter. In the mid-70s, the county obtained 3 T-Band channels for its operations and built out a "County Alert" system on the channel that used to be called "Channel 3." Around the late 70s, to early 80s, every dispatch center had a Mocom-70 T-Band consolette, every supervisor's car had a T-Band Maxar, and every patrol car had a Motorola tabletop monitor radio bolted under the glove compartment. You might have seen the rigid "Oil Derek" antennas back then.

Unfortunately for the T-Band system, when it was first built-out, the main site was at the Palisades Interstate Park maintenance yard in Alpine. It didn't exactly provide the coverage expected. The primary system was moved to Stag Hill in Mahwah through the 80s, with voting receivers in various places throughout the county. And, equally unfortunate for County Alert, SPEN 1 was developed in the late 70s. It did a better job. By the mid 80s, the County Alert receivers were out of the cars and most departments stopped maintaining the Channel 3 control stations.

Channel 3 went on to be used for additional information and eventually became claimed by the Sheriff for civil process and off-campus operations. Some of these frequencies were severely limited because they had to have geographic separation from Nassau County, which also used them. When additional spectrum was procured, Nassau moved and allowed Bergen County to expand. More recently, in the 00's, the old Part 22 IMTS channels in T-Band (originally deployed at Edwin Armstrong's [the inventor of FM radio] Alpine tower by a man named Charlie Sackermann, and on the air until about 1988) were petitioned for and divided between Bergen, Westchester, Fort Lee, and other communities, opening enough channels for those communities to build trunked systems.

Now, a faction of Congress wants T-Band back for auction because it signed off giving "public safety" the 700 MHz upper D Block. There is a committee in the National Public Safety Telecommunications Council which is working on what to do with this issue, but the reality is that certain Representatives believe that the agencies which have lost spectrum can be accommodated by radio "apps" operating in the D Block and other LTE systems. As it stands, T-Band radio operators have 9 years to vacate, and public safety is given the opportunity to be made whole (on low band?), but there is no greenspace or even brownspace to put them in the NYC metro. Business operators got left with the name of Tony Soprano's boat. They have absolutely no provision in law to be made whole. And, the law is silent on television, with the presumption that TV doesn't have to do anything and spectrum would be auctioned around it (which, effectively makes the plan stupid and useless for national deployment without geographically aware devices). Bergen County has only 7 700 MHz narrowband channels allotted to it, so let's see if that could accommodate the five dozen or so discrete T-Band channels in use. If the Congressional kickback plan sticks, don't worry about this P25 system and encryption.

Then we have Channel 11. That's 155.5500 MHz. Going back to the 70s, it was shared with other communities. For example, Cliffside Park used this as an infrequently-used secondary channel to 155.6100. Last I remember hearing anything on it was 1977. This was abandoned and deleted from the license. Westchester maintained active operations on this channel, and the interaction between Bergen and Westchester. The repeater was located about as far west of Westchester as one could go in Bergen County. Now, it's coming back as a simulcast system with a number of sharply directional antennas and relatively low effective radiated powers to stay out of Westchester. The intent is for a one talk-path liaison channel between VHF communities and UHF communities. That would be an active switch-over and not a patch.

Also pay attention to the UTAC channels, as well as the UTACs that are not on the national plan (you will find them in the RR database). In different systems on the same band, actually switching from channel to channel is more spectrum efficient than patching two dissimilar systems together. It also reduces the possibility of desensitization. On a trunked system, though, if everyone operated on the same system, patching is fairly easy and steers the patched resources over to a completely different patch talkgroup instead of tying up two or more TGs for one conversation. More and more, long-term complex incidents are relying on the Incident Command System and ICS-205 communications plans put together by a COML who selects the most appropriate resources.

As for why agencies did not jump onto the system, know that this subscriber equipment costs more than a conventional UHF or VHF transceiver. The bottom line is king. Likewise, over 100 years of home rule in some communities can only be bent by a lack of revenue. Maybe some of the dust will settle after the narrowbanding deadline. For some towns, it might have been a break-even point to buy into the county system rather than buy compatible narrowband capable equipment (even though subscriber costs are more, they won't have to maintain networks of base stations anymore - and that will negatively impact the radio service vendor community, which remains relatively healthy and competitive in the area compared to other parts of the country).

I hope this historic background fills in some of the blanks and answers some of your questions, Vic.
 

radiomanNJ1

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wow put all the above in the WIKI so this topic doesnt come up repeatedly

Oh 155.55 was in use up to about 2009 by select county PD units (Deterctives /Juvenile Detectives & selected supervisor guards at the Detention center until it closed in early 2010)

any body see the Ft Lee license renewal of 37.380 ? !!
 

vicmiller1

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OK ... So simple re-broadcast of regional alerts on Town repeater systems ... patrol car radios park tuned and get the relayed alert (from their own dispatch) on their "normal" town frequency or frequencies ...

Yes -> 1st, The local town that you may be in (PD,FD & EMS) - My town Fair Lawn, NJ ... simple setup
Yes -> 2nd, The VHF SPEN frequency(S) 154.6800
Yes -> 3rd you may also want to monitor the interop talkgroups on the NJ State Police's own Trunk System
and / or the Common Shared frequencies in the NJ Database.

On items (2) and (3) I see both of these are State links / services ... so it seems like the P25 Bergen / County net is not of the most utility here ... and item (3) is the Analog / Motorola SmartZone / Omni style Trunked system (right now) - Troop B - Northern portion of State - (Totowa is Troop B HQ's) ...I think someone mentioned that will become P25 at some point later on ...
I have all this 1, 2, 3 all set up now ... All Good ... Straightforward ...

-> Also, I do have the Bergen (county) P25 with the Interop Talk Groups set up as well anyway ...

I'm good here ...

Also many thanks for the past history and go-forward (I have to study some of it more, T-Band / "Television Band" it is around 470 + around 470.xxx to 479.xxx that was a 6 - 8 MHz TV slot ... NYC NYPD and Emergency Service (ESU) and Special Units are heavily on that band and have been since the 80's ... all repeater, no trunk ... I scanned that heavily / the last time I was really actively scanning that whole thing ... in the '80's ...

I now see the V-TAC, U-TAC, I-TAC (some are calling this 8-TAC for 800 MHz segment) setups / assignments / allocations .. it is actually on some other threads right here on RR ...

On ICS Plan and COML ... it will draw from whatever is in-place / available at the time ... so it is not a "technology" in and of itself ... just smart workable use of resources ...

Your comment about giving back (vacate) T-Band (in the case of Bergen Co) you are saying 5 dozen or so frequencies (60 - ish) would (maybe if they fit) move to 700 MHz region ... but they've only received quantity seven (7) Narrow band channels in 700 Band ... I think that's what you were saying there ... Yes ?
I did not know about a 9 year time window to vacate T-Band ... is that Nationwide ...
Was the NYC Metro area one of the biggest users of the T-Band ?
I know NYC is in T-Band 470+ to 479 with must be at least 100 Narrow Band channels ... the whole precint map Citywide is in there ...

I think you were also saying non Gov't (business / commercial, etc) setups now in T Band would be left out in the cold ... no alternate plan for them ... Yes ?

but I'm not clear on your comment: " if the Congressional kickback sticks (I think you're referring to the T-Band vacate / give back) don't worry about Bergen County P25 and Encrypt ... didn't understand that connection ...(?) can you clarify ...

Many Thanks,
Victor L. Miller
E-Mail: vicmiller1@aol.com
 
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902

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Vic,

T-Band is a collection of alternatively-used television channels from 14 to 20. They are assigned in 6 MHz increments (the standard size of a TV channel), hence the 3 MHz spacing rather than the 5 MHz spacing beneath 470 MHz. They were allowed in the early 70s by the FCC and were only authorized in a handful of areas that fit the standard metropolitan statistical area ("SMSA") of the time. Those areas were never updated as population shifted. For the NYC area, channels 14 and 15 were originally assigned and were rapidly filled with business and public safety users. These bands were the metropolitan workhorses immediately before 800 MHz and trunking. Yes, NYC jumped on this opportunity and created systems that allowed effective communications. NYC also vacated a number of VHF frequencies (ALL of their prior operations up until about 1975 was on VHF!). Fort Lee (155.67), Ridgefield (155.565), and Teaneck (155.7) each received a former NYPD VHF frequency. I wish I had the old "Firecom" VHF frequency scanner chart that was circulated when I bought my Bearcat 210 a few decades ago.

For NJ, in the early 90s, it became clear that VHF and standard UHF were unable to meet the needs of communities who desired more advanced communications systems. The landscape of Bergen County municipal communications in the 90s included both Bergenfield and Garfield operating low band repeaters, whose performance was less than expected. The NJ APCO local advisor at the time, a NJSP employee, began to write waiver requests to extend Channel 19 (500-506 MHz) northward from the Philadelphia market into Norrtheastern NJ. This is where you see many of the 500 frequencies, like Carlstadt, Wallington, Piscataway, and so on. Prior to this, these communities shared crowded VHF frequencies, but the waiver allowed them to build out systems that enhanced the safety of their officers. In the 00's, Channel 16 was granted as relief spectrum to points east of the Hudson River (essentially intended for NYC). Don't leave out a sea of 482-484 MHz use within NYC, including a second DoITT trunked radio system and many discrete repeater frequencies for FDNY and additional NYPD use. The City did need this spectrum. Use outside of the designated area was limited to no greater than 10 W effective radiated power. While this severely limited large areas, small radius operation, like Bogota, could capitalize on this and use surrounding mutual aid capabilities if they had to travel outside of the area.

The 9 year window is valid for the regions of the US where T-Band operation is allowed. Not all parts of the country allow this. There is thought that "anything can happen in 9 years." We'll see. Some people like me (I was born and raised in Bergen County, family and friends still there - visit as frequently as I can and stay aware of things, but I don't live there anymore) are more excited about it than others. My deliberate use of a pejorative term to describe the process expresses my level of like for all things Beltway. And, yes, Congress was silent on what happens to the business/industrial licensees and entrepreneurs who operate revenue-bearing systems on this frequency band. At least one of our own RR members in the region has a system of 470 repeaters he owns as a side business. Trade groups are attempting to assess the impact to those operators. No substitution was offered. In one Pennsylvania county which is heavily invested in T-Band, when local leadership expressed concern over the proposed Congressional takeback, their local Representative said they could use the LTE network that's in the conceptual stage now. Most of that system's proponents agree that the network is not ready for mission critical voice. Once it is, it will be unmonitorable due to data format and layers of encryption. Hence, my statement about Bergen County and encrypted talkgroups will be the least of anyone's problems at that point.

There is also no mention about what happens to broadcast stations. Only being able to use spectrum in some parts of the country diminishes the spectrum's auction capabilities, but is not impossible considering software defined devices can be programmed to recognize where they are and inhibit their operation if they're not allowed to be there. but, then, if we were looking for "whitespace" to auction (most spectrum managers think auctions are short term solutions, anyway, and prefer to RENT or LEASE for various long and short time durations), then nothing precluded doing this in the markets where T-Band was not available. So, this was essentially a demand for quid pro quo (we'll give you something of value, but we'll also take something of value for it).

Our T-Band landscape looks like 14, 15, 16, and 19 are used very heavily now. Channel 17 has a TV station in Philadelphia. Channel 18 has a TV station that was moved to Montclair State College (the station has massive filtering to avoid interference to Channel 19 systems). Channel 20 was being extended as north as Monmouth County. If you consider that these channels can accommodate 240 12.5 kHz wide pairs, virtually all of the eligible channels (excluding 17 and 18) have someone on them in NJ or NY metro area. I just consulted a spreadsheet I made of localities within Bergen County (and the County itself). There are 66 T-Band channel pairs used here. There are 28 pairs used in channel 14; 15 in channel 15; 2 in channel 16; and 21 in channel 19. Two systems (Bergen County and Fort Lee) are trunked. More discrete frequencies are used if VHF and non-T-Band UHFs are factored in. There are also gains in interagency capabilities if T-Band systems are deployed in adjacent communities to those operating on available 453 or 460 MHz frequencies.

There is also impact between TV stations and T-Band licensees. Tropospheric ducting produces wideband "noise" on Channel 20 licensees in Southern NJ from a station near Boston. The FCC's Media Bureau, Wireless Telecommunications Bureau, and Public Safety Homeland Security Bureau are each separate entities.

Nationwide "Interoperability" channels exist in VHF high band, UHF (453/458), 800 MHz (although in some parts of the country there are TWO sets thanks to glacial movement on "rebanding"), and on 700 MHz, with a good deal of forethought going into the 700 MHz frequencies. Mobiles can access these frequencies as a "licensed by rule" operation and do not have to list them on their own license. Base stations and repeaters do have to be licensed. They may not be co-opted into an agencies internal use (the Interoperability channel cannot be the chit-chat or "go get the mayor a coffee" channel).

ICS = 100% human. No amount of money and technology can ever convince two people they HAVE TO talk to each other at a common incident if they don't think the other is playing on the same team. Once the human issues are taken care of, the rest kinda falls into place.
 

902

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wow put all the above in the WIKI so this topic doesnt come up repeatedly

Oh 155.55 was in use up to about 2009 by select county PD units (Deterctives /Juvenile Detectives & selected supervisor guards at the Detention center until it closed in early 2010)

any body see the Ft Lee license renewal of 37.380 ? !!
I'll save it and try to work it in as I get time. The 33.86 antenna at the original Comcen (on Inwood Terrace) was taken down in 1987. It was a 2-bay DB-212 antenna mounted to the side of the tower. Sometimes the path of least resistance (and the cheapest option) is just to renew the license as-is.

I remember 155.55 being the Hazmat frequency in the early 90s. Interestingly, around that time, 37.40 was being obtained for OEM use with 1 mobile per municipality allowed. 156.7 Hz CTCSS was being used in Ocean County, so they chose 100.0 Hz (the former Leonia tone).
 

jaymatt1978

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Actually the county VHF and UHF frequencies have multiple functions.

The FIRST fuction of 155.5500 and 477.2875 iare stand alone repeaters that can be used when towns don't have each other's frequencies. Meaning say there a call in Ridgewood and they needed other towns that might not have Ridgewood's frequency in their radios, they can all switch over to 155.5500 to communicate . It's like 154.2800 is used by the FD'S to communicate with each other during major fires, this is the same but for police. It's basically the same thing with 477.2875, it's a way for towns on UHF to communicated with the c ounty and each other. Although towns in Northwest Bergen on UHF all have each others frequencies. I can see 155.5500 becoming MORE active because not a lot of towns are jumping on the trunk system.

The SECOND function of 155.5500 and 477.2875 is to PATCH to the county trunked system, meaning towns that aren't on the trunked system can switch to those frequencies and have access to the county trunked system.

As for the "Interop " talkgroups on the Bergen County truunked system, they are for towns and other users already on the trunked system a way t o communicate not all radios have all talkgroups but all radios do have the interop talkgroups.

The way I see it is the county and the towns have always used SPEN to transmit information each other quickly. I don't see this changing! I've heard Bergen County on SPEN as recently as last week. The way SPEN usually works is the dispatch centers usually monitor SPEN and then rebroadcast the information on their own frequencies. Cars have access to SPEN but don't usually monitor it. It's the same thing with 155.5500 and 477.2875 , cars have ACCESS to those frequencies, but usually don't actively monitor them



OK use SPEN and Patch feeds ... so then it seems like the radios in the patrol cars have some type of scan with "priority" type action ... so in other words if a town PD is sitting on their normal Channel 1 (lets say its UHF 478.975 something like that) and a county-wide alarm occurs and gets "patched" from the Bergen P25 system to the UHF and / or VHF patch frequencies:
477.28750 WIL811 RM 156.7 PL UHF Trunk Patch Trunk System Patch FM Interop
155.55000 KZI402 RM 156.7 PL VHF Tk Patch VHF Trunk System Patch FM Interop

This means that the Police patrol cars must also be "priority" scanning through those County Patch frequencies - (meaning mainly jumping back to the officer's set frequency and rapidly hopping just to those additional monitoring patch frequencies) or they won't hear it ...

Victor L. Miller
vicmiller1@aol.com
 
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vicmiller1

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Spectrum Use in NYC Metro Area - Many Thanks for the Overview - Past, Present, Future

Many Thanks for the Great Overview - Past, Present, Future ... Yes Maybe Archive (there were a few / various posts you've done on this thread that would make a great Wiki on NYC / NJ Metro Area Communications and Spectrum Use - Past / Present (and maybe Future) ...

As far as NYC system , as we've said T-Band ch 14 470 - 479 very heavy use ... You say it offers about 240 channel pairs (12.5 KHz each) ... I bet the NYC System is using a big percentage of those in the Ch 14 segment ... I used to have the full precinct map for NYC (all five 5 boroughts) - it was chock full - (470.6875 was CityWide-1 ... if anything big happened you would hear the bells / alarm announcement right there ...) I think "moving" all of that would be a big deal ... that would be a big / large move ... with time and cost factors ... I think there would be quite a bit of "inertia" to overcome to move all of that ...
Here's the NYC Precinct Map documentaiton:
NYPD_ FDNY AND EMS SYSTEMS

OK on the V-Tac, U-Tac, I-Tac (also called by some 8-Tac) ...
I think that's OK ... but it's just one aspect of course ...

OK on your explanation of LTE (with heavy digital layers) ... and
why P25 with Encrypt would be the least of the problems ...

But I think we all can see that LTE (which is basically a wireless Internet and the traffic protocol would all become Voice Over IP - VOIP) is not ready-for-primetime (what you've termed "mission critical voice") and that's right - definitely not ready ... I don't think that would be applicable for a decade or more ...

From my recent conversation with the radioman at my town police dept (and he indicated there are many other towns in Bergen Co he talks to his counterparts with and they are like-minded) they are happy / good with their current repeaters (both performance and coverage) ... and they don't envision any "quick moves" ... I think the evolution in North Jersey and Bergen Co area is going to be slow for quite some time ...

I'm already set up ... and it means there won't be that
much new re-programming to do for awhile :)

All OK ... Many Thanks,
Victor L. Miller
E-Mail: vicmiller1@aol.com
 

Gregg251

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Bergen County P25/not receiving any audio using Pro-96

I have the Bergen County P25 system programmed into my Pro-96 using Win96 download from Radio Reference. While I see system names displayed (Leonia PD, Lodi EMS), I am not getting any audio. Does anyone have any ideas?

Regards,
Gregg, N2UUP
 

902

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Gregg,

I had the same problem.

Were you in FM mode? I was back home a year and a half ago and was trying to listen to Fort Lee's P25 system on a Pro-96 in trunked and could not get it to work. Best I figured, I needed to load the tables on what frequency does what, but I didn't have a lot of time and ended up just getting busy and finally had to head back. I could listen in conventional scan with it just in the FM mode, though, but that's not the desirable way to listen.
 
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