No fire tone-outs

[RoninJoliet]

Thank You "Scanman1958" , there are a lot of great people on this site and I learn a lot from them also....

 

[frankdrebbin]

Great explanation jaetock. I totally agree.

Those reasons are why large departments like Chicago use a simplex command channel on all fires. One simple freq with no fear of "hitting the repeater" five miles away, etc. Too bad municipalities sometimes leave it up to the aldermen at monthly meetings to decide what channels to use. Dangerous.

I also agree with your statement at the end...…..Just because you can shouldn't mean you should. How true.

I have known RoninJoliet for years. (even met up with him once in Joliet) He has a lot of info to share. He is a buff just like the majority of us. Nice to get feedback from you.

I hope our guy in Monroe county can get his tones back. Ha. Also if he needs any other help he can PM me about MOSWIN site to scan.

Well I was sitting in our shop this morning when my coworker's fire pager went off and no tones broadcast, only the tone when the pager goes off so for some reason I guess they did away with them. I still may listen for them on the old analog frequency. I will try to see if I can get some MOSWIN traffic. I do hear conventional fire dispatch on it but no P25 as far as the Mo Hwy Patrol Troop C goes. I may have to pick some other sites but I thought I got the ones that were closest to me in Columbia.

 

[jeatock]

Well I was sitting in our shop this morning when my coworker's fire pager went off and no tones broadcast, only the tone when the pager goes off so for some reason I guess they did away with them..

FYI:

Some form of signalling had to be there or your coworker's pager could not have alerted.

Standard QC-II sequence is 1.0 seconds of an audible "A" tone, no inter-tone space, then 3.0 seconds of an audible "B" tone. Audio paging tone frequencies run from 300 hertz up to 1,300 hertz. This is analog so there is a +/- percentage error tolerance. Decoding a specific sequence is what causes the pager to alert. Changing the transmitted duration of the "B" tone will cause a Minitor-type pager to beep/vibrate longer or shorter.

Single long-tone or group page tones are one, long, single audio tone, maybe 5 to 7 seconds. Typically anything after the first 3 seconds causes the pager to beep/vibrate then go "open".

This analog audio tone system has been around for over 50 years. Back in the day, this was an improvement over hearing the fire whistle on the water tower and learning the location of the fire from the station chalkboard. Old-timers don't need a pager, only an open receiver - they know what their tones sound like even when sound asleep.

Standard Minitor programming causes an alerted pager to beep/vibrate for about 2+ seconds then go "open" for whatever follows including the voice. If the base sends subsequent tone sets or generates an additional audible "siren" those would be heard before the voice announcement. If the base only send one 4-second long tone sequence the pager would only beep/vibrate and go open for the voice.

IF your coworker was carrying a Minitor-type pager and IF, the pager was in "keep quite until signaled" mode, the pager would have been muted until it heard at least 0.5 seconds of the programmed "A" tone then immediately heard at least 0.5 seconds of the programmed "B' tone. If both of those tests were true the pager would then beep (generate its own audible tone) for the duration of the rest of the "B" tone (however long that was), then open for whatever voice/tones/alerts followed. The actual "B" tone would not be heard because of the beep/vibrate.

IF your coworker's pager was in "open hear everything" mode all of the audio signaling would have been heard. IF NOT and his tones were the last tone sequence of a multiple tone string, none of the preceding tones would have been heard, only the beep/vibrate and the voice from the dispatcher.

Things have changed in 50 years. Nowadays most volunteer fire agencies rely on automatic mutual aid or multiple station/discipline response, so in many cases the dispatch console has to generate multiple alert tone sets separated by a 1-second silence in one long pre-programmed string. NFPA wants us "out of the door in four [minutes]". Thirty+ seconds of audio alerting - each complete QC-II set is five seconds long including the inter-tone pause - cuts into the NFPA time. Some areas have gone to faster signaling formats like POCSAG and EIA 5-Tone to reduce the time spent waiting for signaling to stop before anyone learns the reason for the alerting.

The difference is in the concept: QC-II addresses a single agency's pagers and tells the users to listen. Other formats send the type, general location and urgency of the incident in a single, fast, data-burst. These systems rely on intelligence in the pager to decide whether the incident is theirs or not. That is much faster when seconds may determine a successful outcome.

 

[frankdrebbin]

All I know is that our volunteer FD uses Unication pagers. I do not know how they are triggered.

 

[Starcom21]

Monroe County Fire Paging

In short, it seems like Columbia and Waterloo Fire are both on SC21 full-time with no VHF Pagers. I haven't figured out the other departments yet.
----------------------------

This summer, St Clair County dropped their 154.19 Simulcast VHF Fire Paging system for Unication. You'll notice a bunch of considerably new talkgroups in the database that I have been ID'ing as they come through.

At the same time, I started hearing TG7999 which is Monroe County Fire paging and Waterloo Fireground on 8000.
79991f3fDMonroe Co FireFire: Tone-Outs / Dispatch Fire Dispatch 80001f40DWaterloo FireTacWaterloo Fire: Tac Fire-Tac
In the RadioIDs Wiki, I have noted:

• 795552 on TG7999 Monroe Co Fire (5/18) EMS (6/18)
• 795553 on TG7999 Monroe Co Fire (8/18)
• 795555 Waterloo Fire? unit 5904 - on TG7999 Monroe Co Fire (8/18)
• 795556 radio repair on IESMA S/W TG30328 (11/14)
• 795557 Waterloo Fire Department - unit 5904
• 795562 Waterloo Fire Department - unit 5911 (6/18)
• 795565 key-up on IESMA S/W TG30328 (9/13)
• 795568 Waterloo Fire Department - Base (6/18) on TG7999 Monroe Co Fire (8/18)
• 795575 TG8007, TG7023
• 795583 Waterloo Fire? unit 5908 or 5910 - on TG7999 Monroe Co Fire (8/18)

I have recently still heard Monday night test paging on:
453.38750 458.38750 WQFN216 RM343 DPLMonroeFire UHF2Fire: Paging/Dispatch "on UHF" (Waterloo) FMN Fire Dispatch


St Clair County new talkgroups:
Departments are paged via Unication pagers via SC21 (154.19 no longer in use)

7288 1c78 D CENCOM East CENCOM: Enroute and Calling - East Fire-Tac
7289 1c79 D CENCOM West CENCOM: Enroute and Calling - West Fire-Tac
7290 1c7a D CENCOM 7290 CENCOM Multi-Dispatch
7293 1c7d D CENCOM 7293 CENCOM: Scrambled Multi-Dispatch
7294 1c7e D CENCOM 7294 CENCOM: Local Multi-Dispatch
8726 2216 D Brooklyn Fire Brooklyn Fire: Dispatch Fire Dispatch
8727 2217 D Cahokia Fire Cahokia Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8728 2218 D SCC Fire 8728 CENCOM: Fire - Local (near State Park?) Fire Dispatch
8730 221a D Caseyville Fire* Caseyville Fire: Dispatch / Ops Fire Dispatch
8731 221b D Church Road Fire Church Road Fire: Dispatch Fire Dispatch
8732 221c D Dupo EMS Dupo EMS: Dispatch (with Fire?) EMS Dispatch
8733 221d D East Side Fire East Side Fire Protection District: Paging Fire Dispatch
8735 221f D FairmontCityFire Fairmont City Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8737 2221 D Freeburg Fire Freeburg Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8739 2223 D Hecker Fire Hecker Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8740 2224 D ?FayettevilleFir Fayetteville Fire: Dispatch/Ops Fire Dispatch
8741 2225 D Lebanon Fire Lebanon Fire: Paging / En Route Fire Dispatch
8746 222a D CENCOM 8746 CENCOM: Local - Fire Paging Fire Dispatch
8748 222c D Mascoutah EMS Mascoutah EMS: Paging EMS Dispatch
8749 222d D Millstadt Fire49 Millstadt Fire: Paging Multi-Dispatch
8750 222e D Millstadt Fire50 Millstadt Fire: Paging (EMS?) Fire Dispatch
8751 222f D New Athens EMS?? New Athens EMS: Paging??? EMS Dispatch
8752 2230 D New Athens Fire New Athens Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8753 2231 D New Athens EMS New Athens EMS: Paging EMS Dispatch
8754 2232 D Northwest FPD Northwest Fire Protection District: Paging Fire Dispatch
8755 2233 D CENCOM 8755 CENCOM: Local/ESDA Multi-Dispatch
8757 2235 D PrairieDuPont?FD Prairie Du Pont Fire?: Dispatch Fire Dispatch
8758 2236 D CENCOM 8758 CENCOM: Local Fire Dispatch
8760 2238 D St Libory Fire Saint Libory Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch
8762 223a D State Park Fire State Park Fire: Paging Fire Dispatch

 

[jeatock]

Thanks, Terry. Great list.

The Unication G4/G5 pagers are basically P25 trunking receivers that monitor the control channel of a system (in Metro-East that's Starcom).

Instead of sending out audible tones on an analog channel, the dispatch console simply switches a control point radio to a dedicated talkgroup ONLY used for a particular agency's page notifications, and the dispatcher starts talking. When the trunking system's control channel announces activity on that dedicated talkgroup a G4 or G5 follows the system to that talkgroup, generates its own alert tone and replays the voice. In effect, the very existence of activity on that dedicated talkgroup IS the signalling.

Because the Unication pagers do not transmit or associate with any particular tower site - association is what normally causes a talkgroup to appear on a site - the Starcom system is programmed to 'force' the talkgroup to cover the targeted area even if no mobiles are associated with the talkgroup in that area.

I was a bit thrown off by frankdrebbin's location of 'Southern Illinois'. Depending on your point of view, Southern Illinois can mean anything south of I-80, anything south of I-70, Eldorodo or Metropolis. My daughter-in-law considers Kankakee County 'Southern Illinois', and Kankakee is geographically in the northern third of the state. 'Metro-East' is geographically west. My error.

<opinion>

I have done a lot of work in Marion, Carbondale, and Metropolis ... the three-hour drive south from home makes me consider them Southern Illinois. Those experiences have biased me.

With urban exceptions, the majority of Illinois counties use analog audio tone signalling over VHF or UHF. In many parts of the state volunteer responder's kitchens and workplaces do not have dependable Starcom portable coverage. Franklin and Williamson counties are prime examples, and there are many more.

I'm also a believer in the 'belt and suspenders' and 'Murphy was an optimist' concepts. The more complex a system is, the more likely it is to fail. Daryl Jones' https://blog.tcomeng.com/ lists hundreds of digital system failures, many of which were not widely known.

I shudder to think of the results even a sixty-minute Starcom failure would have on routine emergency response in the Metro-East counties. Or during any sort of wide-spread emergency. Or when a single incident (Minnesota W35 bridge collapse, Parkland shooting, et al) degrades the entire system to the point of failure over a much wider region, like all of Illinois served by Starcom towers whose site numbers begin with a '3'.

</opinion>

 

[scanman1958]

Sounds complicated to us buffs out here. Guess we will have to find a new way to monitor and follow fire comms in the St Clair, Monroe and maybe even Madison Co areas. We will see.

 

[scanman1958]

To Terry W.

Is your new batch of TG's for fire and EMS used on the StarCom - St Clair Co Simulcast or are they used on the StarCom proper ??If you will?? system? The reason I ask is that for some of us on the west side of the Mississppi River can not receive St Clair Co simulcast at all. No matter what we do. Although we can hear, for the most part most of the Dist 11 area of StarCom.

Actually on a good day or evening I can hear Dist 13 units outside Franklin Co on car stops along Hwy 57. I guess that goes with the dispatch center consolidations.


Thank you for your answer in advance.

 

[Starcom21]

(I assume) They'll be used basically on T359, St Clair Simulcast, but I'm not sure if the Unication pagers associate with a tower, so possibly pages could be on other towers. T359 is basically set to cover internally, not to the west, as it was made to function, as are most of the sites along the Mississippi.

I would assume then, that you will no longer receive any Fire pages, if you don't get that tower specifically.

Some of the other towers may not be as tight, may not limit coverage as much, or you may be getting a tower from the east transmitting in a westward pattern (just a guess).

To Terry W.

Is your new batch of TG's for fire and EMS used on the StarCom - St Clair Co Simulcast or are they used on the StarCom proper ??If you will?? system? The reason I ask is that for some of us on the west side of the Mississppi River can not receive St Clair Co simulcast at all. No matter what we do. Although we can hear, for the most part most of the Dist 11 area of StarCom.

Actually on a good day or evening I can hear Dist 13 units outside Franklin Co on car stops along Hwy 57. I guess that goes with the dispatch center consolidations.


Thank you for your answer in advance.

 

[frankdrebbin]

I am in Monroe County and I can hear the FD dispatches although I have to listen closer to my scanners when I'm throughout the house since the tones don't come across anymore. I use 358 for my main site. I can't hear 359 St. Clair Co. simulcast where I'm at but 323 out of Columbia with my 996P2 can be heard on ID search. I just have to match the TGs with the database. When I head up towards Belleville I'll throw the PSR-800 in the truck and hear St. Clair Co., all associated munis, SWIC, and SAFB so there's a lot to hear and I update everything often so I can keep up with all the changes. It is still P1 down where I'm at. Wish I could hear MOSWIN from MO but only can get an occasional conventional FD dispatch. I think the Ferguson melee lead to St. Louis Co. (SLATER) to be encrypted in my opinion. And since there's interop between SLATER and this side of the ditch I miss out on that too.

 

[N9PBD]

I still have my conventional channels in a couple of scanners I'll have to crank them up again. I use my PSR-800 and have the MOSWIN sites in west and south counties programmed in. I'm in Monroe Co. so I'm not that far out. I didn't know they still used VHF I thought they were all P25 Phase II. I have my antennas in the 2nd floor of the house and still can't get MOSWIN. Next time I go to MO I'll have to bring my 800 with me and see what I get. I listened in when the Ferguson riots were going on. Very intense. As soon as Brown's daddeh said let's burn this b**** down my 3 scanners came to life and I couldn't keep up with it. I'm guessing after that melee they wanted to go encrypted.

Try the St. Clair county 700/800 MHz MOSWIN site (for MetroLink/MetroBus), they've got a strong signal, and carry some of the other talkgroup traffic (I regularly hear MSP Troop C). You may be able to hear it from Monroe county.

 

[scanman1958]

Thank you Terry. I guess I will continue to be in the dark for St Clair Co. I will have to check out, from time to time, a Broadcastify feed to hear stuff that is going on.

And that is a great idea to check out the St Clair Co site that covers METRO. There may be good reception there for MOSWIN traffic.

Even living on the east side and in a neighboring county it appears there is difficulty scanning St Clair Co. I am glad to hear that is isn't just me.

Speaking of reception why can I hear St Clair Co sheriff rural channels three (3) and four (4) on StarCom sites outside of site 359 but I can not hear dispatch one (1) and two (2)?

I already have all the TG's Terry listed programmed in my scanner under StarCom (no site 359) to see if anything comes over other sites.


Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[frankdrebbin]

Thank you Terry. I guess I will continue to be in the dark for St Clair Co. I will have to check out, from time to time, a Broadcastify feed to hear stuff that is going on.

And that is a great idea to check out the St Clair Co site that covers METRO. There may be good reception there for MOSWIN traffic.

Even living on the east side and in a neighboring county it appears there is difficulty scanning St Clair Co. I am glad to hear that is isn't just me.

Speaking of reception why can I hear St Clair Co sheriff rural channels three (3) and four (4) on StarCom sites outside of site 359 but I can not hear dispatch one (1) and two (2)?

I already have all the TG's Terry listed programmed in my scanner under StarCom (no site 359) to see if anything comes over other sites.


Thanks for all your help guys.

Could you try site 323 out of Columbia? It is a neighbor of 359 and closer to MO.

 

[scanman1958]

I use 323 and another site (forget which one) to get Monroe Co stuff. I think the other site is one of the AmerenUE sites. I get most of my IL reception from 323. Really...…..reception of any IL trunked stuff is very hard over here. I admit, I live in a hole too in SW city. Glad to have RR forums to help.