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NXDN programming question

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w9sar

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I have an Icom F1000D that I've programmed to monitor my county's fire NXDN frequencies, but I'm not receiving traffic on some of the frequencies. I've tried various settings in the programming to no avail, and I've even been in contact with Icom tech support and they have no idea what the problem is. The frequencies I'm monitoring include the main dispatch frequencies (which I believe to be a multi-site conventional) and I can receive these just fine. But each fire department has their own "private" frequencies, and these I'm not receiving. I should note that I have a BCD996P2 with the NXDN upgrade and I can receive these frequencies on it, but not on the 1000D. On one of the frequencies that I can't receive on the 1000D, I started hearing another agency about 50 miles away. The RAN for the FD is different than the distant agency, but that doesn't matter because I have the radio set to receive regardless of RAN. I also note that when the FD is transmitting, the RX LED on the 1000D is illuminated but no audio. I'm at a loss as to what the problem is. I also have some other NXDN frequencies of other agencies programmed in which I'm receiving fine; analog works fine as well. I can't understand why I'm able to receive certain NXDN frequencies and not others. Any ideas?
 

mmckenna

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Make sure you have the bandwidth for the channels set correctly.

If your scanner is receiving them, they're in the clear and not encrypted, so that's ruled out. The scanner, however, will determine the data rate/channel bandwidth and adjust itself, the Icom will not.

NXDN comes in two flavors:
6.25KHz channel width, aka: Very Narrow NXDN. Runs about 4800baud.
12.5KHz channel width, aka: Narrow NXDN. Runs about 9600baud.

The radio will not decode audio if the channel width is not set correctly. The RX LED lighting up tells you that you have the frequency correct.
 

w9sar

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I was beginning to consider the bandwidth issue, and I think that's the problem. Unfortunately the F1000D only has 12.5 and 25. I'm not sure I can upgrade the firmware since this is an older radio. But, I'm not sure why some within the fire system would use 6.25 and others 12.5 (which I'm guessing dispatch is using 12.5 and the others 6.25, which is why I can hear dispatch but not the individual departments. I'm also a bit surprised that the Icom techs didn't consider this, but I'll ask them if there's a firmware upgrade. Thanks for your input!
 

mmckenna

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I was beginning to consider the bandwidth issue, and I think that's the problem. Unfortunately the F1000D only has 12.5 and 25. I'm not sure I can upgrade the firmware since this is an older radio. But, I'm not sure why some within the fire system would use 6.25 and others 12.5 (which I'm guessing dispatch is using 12.5 and the others 6.25, which is why I can hear dispatch but not the individual departments.

25KHz is only for analog.
12.5KHz channel width can be narrow band FM or "narrow" NXDN.
6.25KHz is only going to be NXDN.

I'm also a bit surprised that the Icom techs didn't consider this, but I'll ask them if there's a firmware upgrade. Thanks for your input!

Some of the early Icom radios only did 6.25KHz NXDN, but not 12.5KHz NXDN. Later on, they included both. I'd take a close look at make sure you have it set for NXDN and then program the channel in with 6.25KHz and a RAN of Ø, and again as 12.5KHz and a RAN of Ø.
You may also want to try adding it in as narrow band FM. Mixed mode is a thing, and repeaters can be programmed to pass both. It's a good option if you have a mix of digital capable and analog only radios on the system.

6.25KHz will give a bit extra range. 12.5KHz NXDN is handy if you are also pushing some data, as it gives nearly twice the throughput.

I'm not much help on the Icom programming. Last Icoms I touched were IC-F221's. Since I'm running on 800MHz, all my NXDN gear at work is Kenwood.
 

w9sar

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I realized right after I hit "send" that 25 kHz would only be for analog (I misread the help file in the programming software for the bandwidth setting). I'll try your programming suggestions, but I have already tried wide and narrow with no success (although I haven't tried programming each frequency as W and N in separate channels. Another question while I'm thinking about it: each NXDN channel can be set for TG (talkgroup) or IND (individual) call, and then there's a global setting under options. The Icom tech told me I should have everything set to TG otherwise the radio will be looking for calls to/from specific individual IDs. But, I've tried setting to both and it still receives the channels I was able to receive before. I also tried the group all-call of 65535 which didn't change anything.
 

w9sar

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I'll try TG1. My scanner isn't showing any TG or User IDs for any of the NXDN frequencies (it does work on P25 trunked systems).

I appreciate the suggestions.
 

tunnelmot

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And if you find a solution, please share with the class. I also monitor a mix of NXDN systems which works well, but any added knowledge is good knowledge.
 

w9sar

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The DB has this listed as a Type D single-site trunked system, but I believe it is actually a multi-site conventional. When I asked the FF who provided some of the info to me what type of system they use, he said something to the effect, "all I know is all the repeaters are tied together like it's one big repeater." When I monitor each frequency on analog FM, there are data bursts about every 10-15 seconds on each frequency, so I'm not sure if that's a multi-site conventional or Type D. I can usually hear every transmission regardless what frequency I monitor.


The above system is for fire & EMS dispatch, and talk between dispatch and units. Most of the FDs also have their own "private" channel, and for those you have to look under the county listing. I've attached screenshots from the DB entries, but the frequencies are:

158.91 Shawswick Twp. FD
155.205 Marion Twp. FD
158.835 Mitchell FD / utilities
151.475 Oolitic FD

I'm not sure about the FG frequencies - 153.845, 153.995, and 159.0825 as those are simplex and the incident would have to be relatively close to me in order for me to hear anything. The above four "private" frequencies are repeater.


So, to sum up, I can hear NXDN fine on the county dispatch fire/EMS frequencies. I can also hear NXDN from Greene Co. EMS, as well as NXDN from Washington (IN) PD which is on the same frequency as Mitchell FD/utilities (158.835) but using a different RAN (I programmed the radio to be RAN-agnostic). Analog FM works fine too.

I also have the radio programmed for Bedford Fire on 154.055 as well as IU Bedford EMS on 155.07, which are both NXDN encrypted (I was given the encryption key for both). I can't hear either of those but I suspect that goes back to the reason I'm not hearing the other NXDN transmissions and not specific to encryption.

I'll certainly share any solution that I discover, and I appreciate everyone's input. I might also note that Icom tech support hasn't responded to my most recent emails, so I'm not sure they will be offering any further advice (can't blame them since I'm not a commercial customer although I am a fan of Icom's products).

Lawrence Co. FIRE EMS.pngMitchell.png
 

w9sar

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Well, I've spent the better part of the day programming, monitoring, reprogramming, monitoring, ad nauseum. Haven't come up with anything new.

I tried programming the F1000D with two channels, both on 158.835 but one with 6.25 and the other with 12.5 NXDN with those in a scan list, all the while listing to the scanner locked on the same frequency and heard nothing on the F1000D (that I wanted - I still heard Washington PD loud and clear but I don't care about hearing them although I guess it's a good thing I am hearing them as it proves my radio is not dead). Washington PD is licensed for NFM and 6.25 NXDN so I'm assuming what I'm hearing from them is 6.25 NXDN. Just for fun, I programmed the radio with one of the dispatch frequencies (that I can hear on the F1000D) and I could receive that regardless of the W or N setting (I switched back and forth from W and N as they were transmitting and noted no appreciable difference).

I took a look at all the licenses to try to come up with a picture of how each entity "might" be set up (I say "might" because we all know that licensees don't always follow the letter of their licenses). As for the dispatch frequencies (which are spread across two licenses) those are licensed for both W and N NXDN. The "private" frequencies for the individual FDs are mostly W and N NXDN with some W and N FM. One FD is licensed for FM and DMR (on their "private" channel) but not NXDN although I have heard them on NXDN, so there's that.

I guess the important thing for me is being able to receive the dispatch channels, which I can. It would be nice to hear the "private" channels too, but I guess I'm out of luck unless I just happen to stumble upon the solution. I'll keep plugging away, trying different settings here and there, and see what happens.
 

racingfan360

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I also note that when the FD is transmitting, the RX LED on the 1000D is illuminated but no audio

Going back to basics I can think of a few considerations where this would show:
1. Correct NXDN mode but wrong RAN code: I think you have covered this off, with RAN=Search

2. Wrong NXDN Mode: You've tried both but your scanner will actually tell you if it's Narrow 12.5khz (NXDN9600) or Very Narrow 6.25khz (NXDN4800)

3. It's Trunked not Conventional. I'm not familiar with the F1000D but a Conventional Kenwood cant receive Trunked voice channels. The scanner wont care

4. If it is conventional the only other possibility I can think off is that there is a small frequency offset on the channel: for a 12.5khz wide license, you can squeeze two 6.25khz wide channels side by side, so for illustration a license with a center freq of 155MHz could have two channels side by side, centered on 154.996875 MHz and 155.003125 MHz: at 6.25kHz bandwidth they wont interfere with one another collectively they still only occupy 12.5khz. The Uniden scanner isn't selective enough to distinguish between them.
 

w9sar

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A minor update with very little (no?) progress.

I spent considerable time sitting in front of my 996P2 trying to catch transmissions and noting if they are 6.25 or 12.5. I use Proscan for logging, but unfortunately bandwidth is not one of the things it will log (it will log RAN, CTCSS/DCS, CC, TG, UID, etc, but not bandwidth).

I've determined that the dispatch frequencies (which I think is a multi-site conventional although I can't be certain) is 6.25. I have no problems hearing any of the five dispatch frequencies on the F1000D, using either 6.25 or 12.5 programming, but of course I normally have it programmed for 6.25 since that is what they're using.

On one of the "private" FD channels that I'm trying to monitor, 158.835 (which the FD shares with that town's water dept.), I've found that they are using 12.5, but as I mentioned earlier, I tried programming the F1000D for both 6.25 and 12.5 on this frequency and couldn't receive either. I was also able to catch a co-channel licensee (Washington PD) on the same frequency, which I can hear on the F1000D, and it shows 6.25 (which I can also hear when programmed for 12.5).

I didn't hear any traffic from the other FDs on their "private" channels (even on the 996P2) so I haven't been able to catch anything from them. As for the possibility of them having two 6.25 "channels" on a 12.5 frequency, I really doubt that's the case as these are very small volunteer departments with very little radio use on their "private" channels (even though some of these FDs had calls while I was listening, none of them used their "private" channels).

I'll keep plugging away although I'm not sure what else I can try. Many thanks to those of you who have provided input.
 

racingfan360

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Thanks for the update.

I think more information on the systems being monitored will be key to solving this. I would suggest looking into running the DSD+ software with a cheap SDR dongle to begin with: lots of info on this here: Voice/Control Channel Decoding Software

> and it shows 6.25 (which I can also hear when programmed for 12.5).
I may be misreading this but that sounds very odd: to be clear, when programmed as NXDN Very Narrow (6.25khz) you wont decode a NXDN Narrow (12.5khz) signal, or vice versa. Some scanners don't differentiate -or even tell you - but your F1000D should.

If it does help, raw NXDN-VN and NXDN-N sound diffrent to the ear when you Receive in FM: this may help: Next Generation Digital Narrowband (NXDN) - Signal Identification Wiki
 

w9sar

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I'm definitely going to give DSD+ a try.

As for being able to hear a 6.25 signal when the radio is set to 12.5, I was wondering if that was possible although I didn't think it was (which you confirmed). I'm wondering if my F1000D might have forced the channel to 6.25 (there is a setting in the radio's programming that will force all channels to 6.25 if you select that; I had deselected it, but perhaps the radio - for whatever reason - still forced the channel to 6.25).

A little more information that I just gleaned from monitoring one of the dispatch frequencies on an analog FM radio: I am actually hearing two bursts of data a regular intervals. I hear what I will describe as a "lower pitched" one every 30 seconds, and then a "higher pitched" one every 1 min. 5 sec. (timed using the stopwatch on my phone). Neither of these are voice transmissions as I was also monitoring the frequency on my 996P2 and I heard nothing on it. Not sure if this relates to what type of system they're using.

I also just heard one of the FDs on their "private" channel and, according to the 996P2, they are using 12.5. This would make the second FD to come up as 12.5 on their "private" channel, so I'm wondering if they are all 12.5 (except for dispatch). Thus, since I had everything programmed as 6.25, I wouldn't hear them (although still doesn't account for how I was hearing dispatch, which is 6.25 according to the 996P2, when I had them programmed for 12.5, unless the radio forced everything to 6.25).

Finally, I got an email from Icom tech support and this is what he offered:

"I am not sure why you are having that issue but i am at loss as well. I would suggest just creating a new test file with just 1 channel with simplex frequency and a RAN (Digital channel) and test them with SQL set to RAN. Unit ID needs to different on both radios."

The mystery continues.
 

mmckenna

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A little more information that I just gleaned from monitoring one of the dispatch frequencies on an analog FM radio: I am actually hearing two bursts of data a regular intervals. I hear what I will describe as a "lower pitched" one every 30 seconds, and then a "higher pitched" one every 1 min. 5 sec. (timed using the stopwatch on my phone). Neither of these are voice transmissions as I was also monitoring the frequency on my 996P2 and I heard nothing on it. Not sure if this relates to what type of system they're using.

That could be site scan function, where the repeaters will periodically send out a beacon so the subscriber radio can keep track of which site it is in range of.
Or, could be GPS location data being beaconed out by individual radios.


What is the call sign of the frequency you are trying to monitor? While the FCC license isn't necessarily an accurate source of info, one of us may be able to gather some information from it and give you some more ideas.
 

w9sar

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I figured the data bursts were some sort of beacon, site scan, voting, etc. Could also be GPS from the subscribers, as I do know they have AVL.

I've installed DSD+ and in the process of learning how to configure it.

There are several callsigns involved since each FD has their own "private" frequency(ies). It looks to me their system-wide license structure is a bit of a mess. But here is a breakdown of what I have:

Dispatch (Maybe a multi-site conventional - I can hear all transmissions regardless as to which frequency I listen to; each frequency/site is in a different part of the county). 996P2 shows NX4:
155.655 (KWN469)
155.0925 (KWN469)
151.0325 (KWN469)
154.8675 (WQYL993)
154.7325 (WQYL993)

Mitchell FD/Water Dept. (996P2 shows NX9)
158.835 (WPUG389)

Shawswick FD (haven't heard any recent transmissions so not sure if NX4 or NX9)
158.91 (WQOG547) Not licensed for NXDN but have heard them

Marion Twp. FD (996P2 shows NX9)
155.205 (WPNX555)

Bedford FD (nothing heard)
154.055 (KBY743) Note: Encrypted but I have the encryption key

IU Bedford (nothing heard)
155.07 (KXF673) Note: Encrypted but I have the encryption key

Hope this helps. I appreciate all the help!
 

mmckenna

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So a couple of disclaimers:

FCC license info is not always correct. In an ideal world, it would be, but it's not uncommon for the radio shop to just license for a bunch of different emissions but only use one (or none) of them. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last.

I have some 800MHz conventional stuff where I have the repeater licensed for analog, P25 and NXDN. I'm currently running analog only on the repeater and analog and NXDN on the mobile side.

So, here's what I can add/confirm from looking at the FCC license for these. May not be 100% accurate, and you may find something different in the field, but it's what I can offer based on a lot of years of looking at FCC licneses:

155.655 (KWN469)

License shows both narrow and very narrow NXDN on that frequency. Shown as FB2, so a conventional repeater, likely not trunked. Repeater is located on the tank at:
592 DIAMOND ROAD
HELTONVILLE, IN
LAWRENCE County

If you are hearing data burst on this frequency, it may be a site scan beacon or GPS data from the MO's.

155.0925 (KWN469)

Like above, shows narrow and very narrow NXDN on the license. Shown as FB2, so a conventional repeater, likely not trunked. Repeater located on the tank at:

2212 HARRODSBURG RD
SPRINGVILLE, IN
LAWRENCE County

Again, if you are hearing a consistent data burst, might be site scan beacon or GPS data.

151.0325 (KWN469)

Same as above. Repeater located at:

WATER TANK BETWEEN 5TH & K STREET
BEDFORD, IN
LAWRENCE County




Looking at all three of these frequencies and their locations, it looks like they ~may~ be using a site scan function. Coverage is overlapping, but not the same. If you hear dispatch on all three frequencies at the same time, but mobiles/portables only responding on one of them at a time, that's likely the way it's set up.
The eligibility for this license is shown as:
90.20a - OPERATE COUNTYWIDE FIRE DISPATCH FOR 9 VOL.FIRE DEPTS. AND SHERIFF DEPARTMENT OPERATIONS

But, take that with a few grains of salt. This info is from me looking at an FCC license that may/may not be correct. It's probably a good place to start. The best info is going to come from you with your scanner slowly figuring this out and updating the database.

As for narrow or very narrow NXDN, they are likely only using one. While ti would be possible to run both, that would be a really odd setup. But odd doesn't mean it's wrong. Just not common.

Encryption is a real possibility and your radio won't decode that. Depending on how your scanner is set up, it might just not give you any audio at all. Your Icom will just ignore it since you don't have the keys.

154.8675 (WQYL993)

Again, licensed for both narrow and very narrow NXDN.

Eligibility:
90.20a - PROVIDES FIRE PROTECTION TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC; OFFICIAL COMMS.

Location, top of the tank at:

9938 TUNNELTON ROAD
BEDFORD, IN LAWRENCE County

Number of mobile stations is the same as the three above, so may be part of the same system, just licensed separately.

154.7325 (WQYL993)

License shows narrow and very narrow NXDN.

Located on the tower at:
576 KINGS RIDGE ROAD
MITCHELL, IN
LAWRENCE County

Again, the coverage of these two repeaters shows some overlap, but not the same coverage, sort of suggests a site scan might be used, or users have to select the right channel. Two sites at different ends of the county….

Mitchell FD/Water Dept. (996P2 shows NX9)
158.835 (WPUG389)

Eligibility:
90.20(A)1 - POLICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL COMMS.

Licensed for analog FM, as well as narrow and very narrow NXDN (not uncommon to see this)

Located on top of the tank at:

14TH AND BROOK
MITCHELL, IN
LAWRENCE County

Also located on the same tank:
155.730 on the same license. Same analog and NXDN emission types. So, likely 2 channel system, single site.


Shawswick FD (haven't heard any recent transmissions so not sure if NX4 or NX9)
158.91 (WQOG547) Not licensed for NXDN but have heard them

This call sign is for a T-mobile point to point link. I think you meant WQOG457.

Eligibility:
90.20(A) 1 - APPLICANT PROVIDES FIRE PROTECTION TO BUSINESS AND RESIDENTS WITHIN THE AREA

One repeater, licensed for analog FM and DMR. No NXDN on the license, but that doesn't mean they didn't change their mind after licensing (especially if surrounding agencies are NXDN, but could be running Kenwood NX-5000 radios that will do both NXDN and DMR.

Marion Twp. FD (996P2 shows NX9)
155.205 (WPNX555)

Eligibility:
90.20A - FIRE DEPARTMENT TACTICAL FREQ. TO PROVIDE BETTER COMMUNICATION FOR FIRE OPERATIONS AND DEPARTMENT ACTIVITIES.

Licensed for analog FM, as well as NXDN narrow and very narrow.

Location of repeater is on top of the tank at:
.2 MI SOUTYH ON HARRISON ROAD FROM BURTON CEMETERY ROAD
MITCHELL, IN
LAWRENCE County

Bedford FD (nothing heard)
154.055 (KBY743) Note: Encrypted but I have the encryption key

Eligibility:
90.20(A)1 - Municipal Fire Department

Licensed for Analog wide FM (not legal to use, this will get removed), analog narrow FM, as well as narrow and very narrow NXDN. Use of encryption is not shown on FCC licenses.

Single repeater located at:
Water Tank 5th & K Streets
Bedford, IN
LAWRENCE County


IU Bedford (nothing heard)
155.07 (KXF673) Note: Encrypted but I have the encryption key

Eligibility:
90.20(A)1 - MEDICAL/AMBULANCE CENTER

Licensed for analog FM, as well as narrow and very narrow NXDN.

Repeater location is top of the tank at:
JCT. OF 5TH & K STREETS
BEDFORD, IN
LAWRENCE County

Looking at the license, they have the single repeater plus a lot of base station (FB) . Some of the base station frequencies are the UHF MED channels, and they may communicate more on those than VHF if the local ambulance companies use them more often.

Hope this helps. I appreciate all the help!

I hope that sheds a bit more light on it. The Radio Reference database is mostly done by people such as yourself. While the FCC info can be useful, the true understanding of the system will come from you and your scanner listening to this over weeks/months and figuring it out.

-Don't every put all your trust in the Radio Reference database. It's only as accurate as people have made it. Some don't always put quite the effort into it and data may not be accurate.

-FCC database is what was licensed at a snapshot in time. Shops don't always update licenses when things get changed.
 

w9sar

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Thanks for that info. I do know that what a particular licensee uses doesn't always comport with what they're licensed to use.

Just a note on the use of the 463 MED channels: they are rarely used these days. When I worked EMS, we had the UHF capability but we always used IHERN (155.34) for hospital reports. Most EMS these days use either IHERN or cellphone (I know of one service in a neighboring county that uses their dispatch channel (NXDN) but with a different RAN, which in my mind would mean no calls can be dispatched if a medic is talking to the ER).

I'm trying to get DSD+ to work with SDR# and an RTL-SDR. I finally got the audio piped from SDR# to DSD+ using VB audio cable but nothing is being decoded.

That being said, I think I've found the issue. I got to thinking about the possibility of this being a bandwidth issue, so I programmed the F1000D with an arbitrary frequency (154.6) using NXDN and then listened on my 996P2 to see what showed up. I found that the F1000D apparently only does 6.25 NXDN, which would explain why I can hear 6.25 transmissions but not 12.5. There doesn't seem to be a way to program the F1000D for 12.5, but I've emailed Icom to see what they say. There is a W/N selection for each channel in the programming, but that's only for analog FM.
 
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