OFT (One Frequency Trunk) vs Digital Conventional Programming

[werinshades]

This has been discussed before when"the list" was created, but went nowhere. Now that we have Uniden's ear thanks to @jasonhouk, maybe it can be opened back up for discussion/modification to programming if enough interest is generated?

What's the general consensous of how many of you program Digital Conventional systems like P25/DMR/NXDN? Do you utilize the OFT programming method to capture talk groups, radio ID's, slots, or do you utilize the conventional method and just put up with it if more than one slot is used and don't bother text tagging your radio ID's or slots? Would there be enough interest generated to see a change, to update the Sentinel program and a firmware update in the scanners (996 series/HP-1/HP-2/436/536/SDS100/SDS200/SDS150) and submissions to make it mirror the scanners? Should the OFT programming structure be eliminated if all the programming that is used in OFT be modified in the conventional format?

 

[cubn]

I mostly use my 436 to identify new or outdated info to update the Radioreference database.

So I use the Department as the Alpha tag (ex. "American Airlines") and then enter all the frequencies within it with just the default channel name being the frequency so I can see the DMR details when someone talks.

I've only used OFT when I want to check a specific Slot 2 to see if it is ever used (ex. Local school bus or Public Works repeater where only Slot 1 has ever been submitted to RR).

If I do want to listen to a specific slot (ex.local mall security on SL1) I just use my TYT radio.

 

[werinshades]

I mostly use my 436 to identify new or outdated info to update the Radioreference database.

So I use the Department as the Alpha tag (ex. "American Airlines") and then enter all the frequencies within it with just the default channel name being the frequency so I can see the DMR details when someone talks.

I've only used OFT when I want to check a specific Slot 2 to see if it is ever used (ex. Local school bus or Public Works repeater where only Slot 1 has ever been submitted to RR).

If I do want to listen to a specific slot (ex.local mall security on SL1) I just use my TYT radio.

Using your purpose for DMR, would it be an advantage to have all the DMR parameters available if you could program as DMR conventional? If you could program as Slot-Any with the specific color code without a talk group assignment and set the display to show the talk group, would you find that to be beneficial?

 

[gary123]

TIII systems may also need a tweak. Many of these are OFT. For some reason the 436/536/100/200 have troubles keeping sync. I know its related to the 1 sec CC burst every 5-10 seconds(or longer). It may be best if there was a dedicated mode for CAP+ (TIII) rather than the scanner using the default DMR mode decoding and then having to recognize the TIII format everytime.

 

[cubn]

Using your purpose for DMR, would it be an advantage to have all the DMR parameters available if you could program as DMR conventional? If you could program as Slot-Any with the specific color code without a talk group assignment and set the display to show the talk group, would you find that to be beneficial?

My initial DMR listening started with cheap DMR UHF radios. I was actually shocked when I got my first Uninden DMR scanner that I could not selectively choose the slot on a given conventional channel.

But for what I listen to 95% of the time I don't actually miss that feature for the reasons I gave above.

I do acknowledge I'm probably a minority but what I listen to on a daily basis is Cap+ or P25 trunked so I'm not feeling like my Uniden 436 is missing anything. On rare occasion, some arenas I visit use DMR simplex so again selecting a slot on a conv channel isn't necessary to isolate one user from another.

And I really never look at radio IDs unless someone says "switch to channel 6" I check the radio ID and see if it moves over to the new channel and then I can submit it to RadioReference.

 

[dmfalk]

It's good to recognise that there are differences between conventional, trunking and one-frequency trunking.

Conventional is literally just that: a single service that uses one frequency as a single channel for all communications, regardless of department or talkgroup or user ID, although these can be used to differentiate between them, and have no other control information.

Regular trunking uses a control signal, often on a designated frequency or channel, to steer multiple services, departments or talkgroups across a logical group of frequencies and/or channels.

One-frequency trunking (OFT) is a subset of that, but just as it's named, does so on only one frequency. This is especially useful in DMR, as it can assign across the two slots.

Each form has its usefulness, depending on the service.

 

[hiegtx]

What's the general consensous of how many of you program Digital Conventional systems like P25/DMR/NXDN? Do you utilize the OFT programming method to capture talk groups, radio ID's, slots, or do you utilize the conventional method and just put up with it if more than one slot is used and don't bother text tagging your radio ID's or slots?

I use the OFT method on 'unknown' digital systems, to see if more than one TGID is in use. That's primarily used on DMR users with more than one frequency at the listed location. There are few NXDN 'unknown status' systems (based on licensing) of interest in my area. As far as P25 digital, I have yet to run across one of interest in my area, While a TGID might be used, it's almost always a default, such as "1", with no more than a single TGID in use.

For DMR licensees, especially those with more than one frequency on the license (these are almost exclusively businesses, with a few school districts). I use the OFT to see if the same TGID is popping up on more than one frequency on a given license, which indicates that a system may be in use.

Would there be enough interest generated to see a change, to update the Sentinel program and a firmware update in the scanners (996 series/HP-1/HP-2/436/536/SDS100/SDS200/SDS150) and submissions to make it mirror the scanners? Should the OFT programming structure be eliminated if all the programming that is used in OFT be modified in the conventional format?

While it certainly might be an advantage to people in some areas, it's not something that is a deal breaker for me.

The 'elephant in the room' here is whether there is a GRE (and now inherited by Whistler) patent for that feature, such that Uniden cannot use it? As has been discussed numerous times, a patent originally obtained by GRE apparently prevents Uniden from having the alert LED function remain on while it's corresponding channel is active. Uniden scanners activate the alert light for around 5 seconds or less, whereas the GRE/Whistler scanners leave that activated while the channel remains actively receiving a signal.

 

[werinshades]

I use the OFT method on 'unknown' digital systems, to see if more than one TGID is in use. That's primarily used on DMR users with more than one frequency at the listed location. There are few NXDN 'unknown status' systems (based on licensing) of interest in my area. As far as P25 digital, I have yet to run across one of interest in my area, While a TGID might be used, it's almost always a default, such as "1", with no more than a single TGID in use.

For DMR licensees, especially those with more than one frequency on the license (these are almost exclusively businesses, with a few school districts). I use the OFT to see if the same TGID is popping up on more than one frequency on a given license, which indicates that a system may be in use.


While it certainly might be an advantage to people in some areas, it's not something that is a deal breaker for me.

The 'elephant in the room' here is whether there is a GRE (and now inherited by Whistler) patent for that feature, such that Uniden cannot use it? As has been discussed numerous times, a patent originally obtained by GRE apparently prevents Uniden from having the alert LED function remain on while it's corresponding channel is active. Uniden scanners activate the alert light for around 5 seconds or less, whereas the GRE/Whistler scanners leave that activated while the channel remains actively receiving a signal.

I have a field in my display for conventional systems to see if a certain talk group is in use. In another field, I have the CTCSS/DCS/NAC/ColorCode/RAN to see what comes up, and another displaying the non-texted tag radio ID's in use. There are a few systems I've come across where multiple talk groups are in use on P25 system, which makes OFT programming a challenge.

I was looking through the 5 year old "help you, help me" thread and a post caught my attention in regards to the radio ID's and whether or not a user would be limited in conventional digital modes, unlike trunking modes. I could copy and paste 3-4,000 radio ID text tags in a few P25 systems if made available. Not sure if the user was correct, or just spouting.

It doesn't sound like OFT makes a difference in your style of programming and most of the parameters you're looking for can be done in conventinal digital programming. Over the years and when I see posts in regards to OFT, it seems very confusing to set up for many here. While some may find it useful, others don't have much use for it and I compare it to the waterfall, fire tone out, close call etc. If I made a DMR conventional system submission and include slots and talk groups, if the average user downloads the information, it won't carry over to their programming since Sentinel doesn't recognize OFT systems. The user might see my submission for the ABC Learing Center, 461.000 CC-5/slot-1 Security, 461.000 CC-5/slot-2 Maintenance, but when it's downloaded to their scanners, that information isn't there. I don't know if having both options made available for a couple updates might be the better option, then take a membership poll to see how many actually are using OFT if conventional digital parameters mirror them?

 

[VORTAC]

Excellent topic.

We have a multitude of single-frequency systems in the province of Quebec. Emergency services, public works, security, event management, and commercial services, many use a single digital frequency. Here, analog radios are becoming obsolete.

Several services have between 1 and 8 radio groups operating on the same frequency. Near my home, the municipal swimming pool operates on 4 different radio groups. So, I have hundreds of small systems programmed into my scanners in OFT mode.

Personally, I find that the programming adapts very well: everything is there as in trunking, except for the LCNs. If I only want to listen to group 2, it's simple once the system is properly set up. And the display (text) obviously helps to avoid mixing up the groups.

If more than one frequency (IP) is used to cover a larger territory, I add them together in the same system.

However, you have a good point: I never noticed that the RR database did not allow the addition of this kind of system in our receivers.