Opinion-best freq for consistent, reliable comments 0-100 miles??

[Edarmstrong]

In all your experience folks, all things bring relatively equal, what would you say is the "best", reliable two way radio communications frequency/carrier for range in a rural, hilly, fairly large area of say 0-100+ miles (no skip zone) mobile to mobile, and then mobile to base?
10m SSB
6m SSB
2m SSB
Low band VHF (30-50)

Thx you all for ur opinions
Ed

 

[dlwtrunked]

Without talking about power and antenna height, there is no answer to this but making reasonable assumptions, there is no reliable choice in your list.

 

[mmckenna]

Especially mobile….

My first reaction was: 2 to 8MHz with an NVIS antenna and ALE.

 

[prcguy]

A repeater in the middle of your area of operation on a mountain at least 2,000ft high. Then you would only be talking about 50mi in each direction from the repeater site. Or 2-8MHz NVIS but that is at the mercy of the ionosphere and mobile antennas are not very pretty.

 

[kf8yk]

Is this for amateur or commercial use? You have three ham bands and a commercial/public safety band as suggestions. I assume you are looking for a solution with no infrastructure.

One issue with commercial use of HF is the FCC generally disallows using HF as a primary means of communication, for most commercial users HF frequencies are for backup or disaster recovery only. See 90.35(c)(1) and 90.266 for the details.

Have you considered a satellite based system like inReach or Iridium PTT?

 

[Edarmstrong]

I understand folks it's a loaded question. But aside from the usual legalities, admonitions, all the what if's, the what of's, no NVIS, no satellites, no commercial considerations, no repeaters, no mtns, etc etc, which would be ur pick?

Reason being over the years I've read all the ranges and experiments, and there still seems to be some argument and ambiguity as to what is your best simplex mode of reliable communications 0-100 miles, rural and hilly, with NO shadow cone or dead zone (thereby eliminating HF). From the literature, it Seems to be 2m SSB or low band commercial. I've read Commercial (30-50) will yield 50-100 miles, and I've read 2m SSB would do this and more. 10 and 6 SSB would probably not get out that far. Also read that a 2m SSB "mobile" unit, would have too much frequency instability to be reliably used.

Just curious as to what those with far more knowledge and real world experience than myself would choose.

I guess another way to put it, If you had to pick one setup as cited, with just a 100 watt mobile, w/vertical antenna, and a 100 watt base, w/50' fairly basic, common antenna, all other things being equal, 10, 6, 2, (probably SSB), and throw in low band 30-50MHz, what would you choose for these two scenarios, mobile to mobile, and mobile to base, best range performance.

If in your opinion none of the set-ups as cited above would accomplish this, then offer if you would your "best" choice to perform under these desired conditions. Thx again for your info, much appreciated.
Ed

 

[kf8yk]

I wouldn't consider 10 meters, 6 meters and 30-50 MHz low band as distinct choices for your use case of 24/7 groundwave reliability. From 28 to 54 MHz there's not enough difference in groundwave propagation to matter. The difference in these bands is with transient propagation modes like skywave or tropo.

With similar power, antenna gains and antenna heights 28-54 MHz low band should have a slight edge on coverage over VHF/2 meters. But you're just not going to obtain a 100 mile radius of reliable coverage without the aid of the ionosphere, repeater(s), or a satellite.

 

[WG3K]

Especially mobile….

My first reaction was: 2 to 8MHz with an NVIS antenna and ALE.

Came to say something similar with regards to NVIS... and then you had to throw ALE into the picture. Yeah, that's the way to do it. I do miss doing ALE on HF. Unfortunately, with the way *I* read Part 97, I don't think there's a good way to do both the signalling and voice on a common frequency. I think some folks have worked around that limitation doing only the data side and then switching to a voice channel in that band but I don't know how well that works in practice. Also, not sure how well public safety would handle such technology. But, that's a great way to do 0-~500 miles reliably.

 

[Thorndike113]

I live at the base of an RF toilet bowl. I have tried CB radio on SSB out of here and have tested 2M Simplex and currently use GMRS. Either way I look at it, if I want to communicate base to mobile, I need A LOT of power because I only hear good in one direction and its a direction I am never in.

Base to Base I do pretty good on 2M. I can actually hit the Mt Washington repeater and also talk to people on top of Mt Washington which is about 120 miles from me.

Sadly, when it comes to GMRS I have one repeater that I can reliably hear and get into and its 65 miles to the southwest of me which doesn't work base to mobile. So, even though they have set up numerous repeaters all over Maine, I cant use any of them accept for when there is some really good ducting so I am limited to about a 5 mile or less range on base to mobile.

I haven't had a chance to play with VHF lowband as that equipment is pretty pricey and hard to come by.

0-100 miles can be accomplished but the second you throw hills into the equation, your base had better be up on a hill or be running some insane power to cover that amount of distance. If you are playing with directional antennas that can be adjusted, then you can lower your power output. This is just what I have personally experienced. I happen to be one of a few that live in one of the worst spots for radio operators compared to most Hams around me.

 

[Edarmstrong]

Thank you guys, good info. I appreciate ur time on this "age old" type debate.
thx again
Ed

 

[Edarmstrong]

Thx Thorndike, appreciate ur response. Whereabouts u located, I'm over near Portland. I've heard of the linked statewide system in ME but have yet to try it. Supposedly if you hit one repeater it trips all the others in a large area. Sounds like a great system, just wonder how it actually fors perform? Ed

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you guys, good info. I appreciate ur time on this "age old" type debate.
thx again
Ed

I don't believe there is one solution that will meet all your needs and with the limitations you have. If there was, it would solve a lot of issues for a lot of people.
For what I do at work, I have several options that I can draw on based on need. If I was limited to one, I'd be out of luck.

Mobile is going to limit you because simplex range requires antenna height in hilly terrain.
Relying on lower frequencies to 'bend' over hills might work, but it's not going to be reliable, and there's a lot of variables that will impact those lower frequencies.
Repeaters are the solution, but you've removed that option.

 

[Edarmstrong]

Thx McKenna! Appreciate it

 

[AK9R]

For that distance, my choice would be 75/80m with an NVIS antenna. Of course, daytime communications might be challenging.

 

[Thorndike113]

Whereabouts u located, I'm over near Portland. I've heard of the linked statewide system in ME but have yet to try it. Supposedly if you hit one repeater it trips all the others in a large area. Sounds like a great system, just wonder how it actually fors perform? Ed

I live right in the village of Thorndike at the bottom of the hill. I have heard of a few linked things with DMR, Fusion, and analog. Not sure which system you are talking about unless you are referring to the one that the Dixmont Repeater is on. When they are linked it makes life a lot easier contacting people local.

 

[prcguy]

There is no such frequency or band that will do 100mi reliably under the conditions you propose. You might get upwards of 100mi from one elevated spot to another but realistically 5mi to 25-30mi would be your average maximum useable distance running 50 watts on any of the bands you propose mobile to mobile or mobile to a modest base with brief periods of more range.

I did a test probably 30yrs ago running about 50w on 2m, 440 then 100w on 10m and 6m simplex driving around So Cal with several big base stations monitoring. I would use 2m then drive until it got pretty band then I would try the other bands and move on. 2m and 440 were on a roof mount antenna and 10m was on a ball mount on the side of my SUV at the time. I think I used a Larsen 5/8 VHF antenna for 6m, which works as a 1/4 wave base load on 6m.

One base station was not in a good location and the others had reasonable coverage over a large area. I seem to remember 10m SSB having a slight advantage making the most contacts with 2m FM being a runner up. Maximum distance was about 40mi and there were lots of places with zero communications to at least one base station. There was also not a great difference between the bands I tried and the antennas may have more to do with success on one band over the other.

From my elevated base station at home on both 2m and 440 FM I can occasionally reach mobiles out to about 75mi in one direction and about 100mi in another but those paths are mostly line of sight and the 100mi path is mostly over water. On 10m/CB I can do up to about 75mi to another large base station with 100w but I have large antennas and a good location. The only way you can get reliable distance that might approach your goal is with a base station with lots of elevation.

There is no major advantage using 2m SSB over FM, in all the tests I've done talking to very distant weak stations on SSB, switching to FM worked about the same and sometimes sounded better. There is an advantage on paper but I have never seen it in practice. There is no instability issues using 2m SSB or even 432 SSB mobile, at least with radios made in the last 30yrs.

I also think my occasional long distance simplex contacts over 50mi are in the exceptional category and far from normal for most people unless you live on a hill top and still think 25-30mi is what to expect for reliable simplex range for most people.

I understand folks it's a loaded question. But aside from the usual legalities, admonitions, all the what if's, the what of's, no NVIS, no satellites, no commercial considerations, no repeaters, no mtns, etc etc, which would be ur pick?

Reason being over the years I've read all the ranges and experiments, and there still seems to be some argument and ambiguity as to what is your best simplex mode of reliable communications 0-100 miles, rural and hilly, with NO shadow cone or dead zone (thereby eliminating HF). From the literature, it Seems to be 2m SSB or low band commercial. I've read Commercial (30-50) will yield 50-100 miles, and I've read 2m SSB would do this and more. 10 and 6 SSB would probably not get out that far. Also read that a 2m SSB "mobile" unit, would have too much frequency instability to be reliably used.

Just curious as to what those with far more knowledge and real world experience than myself would choose.

I guess another way to put it, If you had to pick one setup as cited, with just a 100 watt mobile, w/vertical antenna, and a 100 watt base, w/50' fairly basic, common antenna, all other things being equal, 10, 6, 2, (probably SSB), and throw in low band 30-50MHz, what would you choose for these two scenarios, mobile to mobile, and mobile to base, best range performance.

If in your opinion none of the set-ups as cited above would accomplish this, then offer if you would your "best" choice to perform under these desired conditions. Thx again for your info, much appreciated.
Ed

 

[Edarmstrong]

PRCGuy
Thanks very much, great information! Thx again
Ed

 

[KA0XR]

There is no such frequency or band that will do 100mi reliably under the conditions you propose. You might get upwards of 100mi from one elevated spot to another but realistically 5mi to 25-30mi would be your average maximum useable distance running 50 watts on any of the bands you propose mobile to mobile or mobile to a modest base with brief periods of more range.

I did a test probably 30yrs ago running about 50w on 2m, 440 then 100w on 10m and 6m simplex driving around So Cal with several big base stations monitoring. I would use 2m then drive until it got pretty band then I would try the other bands and move on. 2m and 440 were on a roof mount antenna and 10m was on a ball mount on the side of my SUV at the time. I think I used a Larsen 5/8 VHF antenna for 6m, which works as a 1/4 wave base load on 6m.

One base station was not in a good location and the others had reasonable coverage over a large area. I seem to remember 10m SSB having a slight advantage making the most contacts with 2m FM being a runner up. Maximum distance was about 40mi and there were lots of places with zero communications to at least one base station. There was also not a great difference between the bands I tried and the antennas may have more to do with success on one band over the other.

From my elevated base station at home on both 2m and 440 FM I can occasionally reach mobiles out to about 75mi in one direction and about 100mi in another but those paths are mostly line of sight and the 100mi path is mostly over water. On 10m/CB I can do up to about 75mi to another large base station with 100w but I have large antennas and a good location. The only way you can get reliable distance that might approach your goal is with a base station with lots of elevation.

There is no major advantage using 2m SSB over FM, in all the tests I've done talking to very distant weak stations on SSB, switching to FM worked about the same and sometimes sounded better. There is an advantage on paper but I have never seen it in practice. There is no instability issues using 2m SSB or even 432 SSB mobile, at least with radios made in the last 30yrs.

I also think my occasional long distance simplex contacts over 50mi are in the exceptional category and far from normal for most people unless you live on a hill top and still think 25-30mi is what to expect for reliable simplex range for most people.

Very interesting write up on your distance testing PRCGuy - Thanks for sharing!

A few follow-up questions - were you using 5/8 wave antennas on 2m and 440, quarter waves or a mix during the test? Also, you say that 10m SSB won by a slight margin, but do you think if you had been running 100w on 2m it would have been more of a toss up (3 dB better)? Based on you comments about SSB vs. FM sounds like 10m FM would have theoretically been the best (and better sounding). I presume the base stations had considerably more gain on their 2m and 440 antennas vs. 6m and 10m?

I live in a suburban area with lots of trees and houses around, and in all the simplex tests I've done over the years on the VHF-UHF bands 2m has always been the clear distance winner over 440. 6m FM has shown to compete with 2m, especially away from the city and man-made noise. However, antenna ground plane efficiency when mobile seems to be a limiting factor, and there is basically no local 6m FM simplex activity for many miles around.