Picking Up School Radios

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n4jri

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In some places, this might be good advice, but much of it doesn't fit available information for the OP's location.

Instead of focusing on FCC license information first, take small block of "most likely" the input frequencies of businesses in your area. Start with the 451-454 Mhz band, then 461-465 Mhz band etc. When you hear something that resembles a "school-related conversation" (Ex. Send Mary Smith down to the office, her Mother is here to pick her up), then you make note of the CTCSS/DCS if it's analog, or Color Code/Slot/Talkgroup(s) if it's Cap+ or DMR in use.

Just to avoid confusion, remember that the bands listed above are for repeater OUTPUTS, and you'll find the inputs 5 MHz higher at 456-459 and 466-470. (actually, this business band starts at 460.65 if you're sufficiently distant from a major airport)

Do not focus on licenses until you hear something that confirms it's a school. It's possible they might be using 4 watt mobiles only, and monitoring from home with a portable scanner, you're results aren't guaranteed.

I would counsel the opposite. While I'm a big fan of using 'search' mode, it can be very cumbersome in a radio-crowded environment. And if your search steps are 12.5 kHz, you're looking at scanning 80 freqs per MHz. Wherever there is license data, you have a much smaller pool of frequencies that the user has expressed an intention to use. Best to start a process of elimination with them. If licensed frequencies bear nothing, then a search of freqs available in off-the-shelf radios (as well as test freqs in Chinese imports) also represents a small pool of things that can be checked and eliminated. Before settling into search mode, it's important to realize that there are a lot of potential search ranges if you can't confirm which band to prioritize, and that searching more than 2-3 MHz at a time may result in missed transmissions.

Once you get a confirmation that this is a school, then confirm via the FCC database as to it's user. As I said, schools might not be licensed individually, but the school district. You can drill down to the location tab on the license information, and might get your answer.

In many cases, this would be good advice, but the OP's locality has extensive, well-organized licensing, and each freq is used by multiple schools. At elementary level, it could be possible to hear multiple schools even from an upstairs room. This is the case in my locality. Best confirmation is likely going to be hearing a teacher or administrator addressed by name. Transmissions are heaviest at dismissal time, and the bus duty function often involves announcing the arrival of school buses by number, and/or private buses picking up kids for afterschool care or activities. Staff names and bus numbers can often be checked from school or district websites. (unless your school is self-conscious about using student and teacher names on the air--and I'm seeing a fair amount of this)

Many businesses are licensed for more than one emission type, so they can upgrade to DMR at a later time to avoid paying to modify the license, so buy focusing on one or the other isn't beneficial.

I agree. Always try straight FM first. Much DMR licensing is just to keep options open for the future, and in FM mode you'll be able to identify the sound of DMR repeaters and any NXDN. Again, be watchful for DMR simplex, which may come across as the scanner stopping in silence.

73/Allen (N4JRI)
 

werinshades

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In some places, this might be good advice, but much of it doesn't fit available information for the OP's location.



Just to avoid confusion, remember that the bands listed above are for repeater OUTPUTS, and you'll find the inputs 5 MHz higher at 456-459 and 466-470. (actually, this business band starts at 460.65 if you're sufficiently distant from a major airport)



I would counsel the opposite. While I'm a big fan of using 'search' mode, it can be very cumbersome in a radio-crowded environment. And if your search steps are 12.5 kHz, you're looking at scanning 80 freqs per MHz. Wherever there is license data, you have a much smaller pool of frequencies that the user has expressed an intention to use. Best to start a process of elimination with them. If licensed frequencies bear nothing, then a search of freqs available in off-the-shelf radios (as well as test freqs in Chinese imports) also represents a small pool of things that can be checked and eliminated. Before settling into search mode, it's important to realize that there are a lot of potential search ranges if you can't confirm which band to prioritize, and that searching more than 2-3 MHz at a time may result in missed transmissions.



In many cases, this would be good advice, but the OP's locality has extensive, well-organized licensing, and each freq is used by multiple schools. At elementary level, it could be possible to hear multiple schools even from an upstairs room. This is the case in my locality. Best confirmation is likely going to be hearing a teacher or administrator addressed by name. Transmissions are heaviest at dismissal time, and the bus duty function often involves announcing the arrival of school buses by number, and/or private buses picking up kids for afterschool care or activities. Staff names and bus numbers can often be checked from school or district websites. (unless your school is self-conscious about using student and teacher names on the air--and I'm seeing a fair amount of this)



I agree. Always try straight FM first. Much DMR licensing is just to keep options open for the future, and in FM mode you'll be able to identify the sound of DMR repeaters and any NXDN. Again, be watchful for DMR simplex, which may come across as the scanner stopping in silence.

73/Allen (N4JRI)

Unless I missed it, I don't believe he's been successful yet? While the information is out there, it doesn't appear it's helpful, unless of course I missed that he found what he's looking for. Custom Search is/and has been the best way to discover previous unknown frequencies. The Illinois Forum is filled with many of us who've found schools, businesses and sports stadiums. Once the information is found out, I've back tracked it to the FCC license. Many times, the company they contract is they reserve additional unused frequencies in what I'm assuming is future capacity issues. The best way is to take a small block of frequencies to search, so not to miss much.

Based on the information I've seen, I'd concentrate on the 451-454 and 461-465 Mhz. custom search for output repeaters. Since the OP is using a handheld without an external antenna, the low-power inputs might be difficult to listen to from a mile away. 4 Watts has been pretty common mobile power strength I've seen. Custom Search limits can be edited so you can isolate it to what you want. Also, Step Sizing, Modulation can also be edited. The length of time to perform Custom Search is dependent on what is in the band in the area. Cap+ rest channels, encryption, can slow down the searching speed.

I offer this solution only because it appears the other suggested methods haven't provided results. As I've mentioned, I've used it very successfully but it can be used or not, just another suggested method from someone with positive results.
 

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I am 3300 feet from the elementary school and can barely get most of the handhelds that they use.
 

n4jri

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Unless I missed it, I don't believe he's been successful yet? While the information is out there, it doesn't appear it's helpful, unless of course I missed that he found what he's looking for. Custom Search is/and has been the best way to discover previous unknown frequencies. The Illinois Forum is filled with many of us who've found schools, businesses and sports stadiums. Once the information is found out, I've back tracked it to the FCC license. Many times, the company they contract is they reserve additional unused frequencies in what I'm assuming is future capacity issues. The best way is to take a small block of frequencies to search, so not to miss much.

Searching segments takes time and so does customizing the search. With any user who goes to the trouble of licensing frequencies, I can't imagine doing any kind of broad search before checking licensed frequencies to see if they're active.
 

werinshades

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Searching segments takes time and so does customizing the search. With any user who goes to the trouble of licensing frequencies, I can't imagine doing any kind of broad search before checking licensed frequencies to see if they're active.

I agree with everything, but if this method hasn't yielded any results, time for a new approach which is why I suggested it. We also understand they might be using low-power mobile radios, and will have to be very close to monitor. I have no idea, but since this search has been going on a week, might be time for a new approach. None of what I mentioned is that time-consuming, but if you're hunting, patience is the key here.

But...anyway...to the OP...any luck yet?
 

n4jri

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I agree with everything, but if this method hasn't yielded any results, time for a new approach which is why I suggested it. We also understand they might be using low-power mobile radios, and will have to be very close to monitor. I have no idea, but since this search has been going on a week, might be time for a new approach. None of what I mentioned is that time-consuming, but if you're hunting, patience is the key here.

But...anyway...to the OP...any luck yet?
Absolutely, I'd also like to know. But I think that the lack of results at this point is more the lack of finding obvious things to try. The OP is new to scanning and to the SDS100, and also new to using the RadioReference database. Notice that the link he posted was for new grants. He had missed out on more established licenses in the full FCC database--likely because when you do a full license readout for a given county, business freqs don't appear unless you toggle them on. Clicking on a callsign and then lat/long for extra info was also a new to him, despite a very good post you made, complete with screenshots.

My own method on these things is generally to try anything licensed to the site and to the entity as a whole, then expand an additional degree to freqs found in off-the-shelf radios, and test freqs in Chinese quasi-radios. Both sets together can be scanned & eliminated quickly, and are spread out over a number of bands. Once activity is found or not, it does help in deciding what order band searches should come in. And yes, patience is a big one for elementary schools. They don't talk much, except at dismissal, so if he's dropping off his daughter in the morning as opposed to picking her up in the afternoon, it can make a big difference in the amount of traffic.

Question for you...what model radio(s) are you using in these kinds of endeavors? For me, it's the TRX-1 assisted by the PSR500.

73/Allen (N4JRI)
 
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werinshades

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Absolutely, I'd also like to know. But what I think is going to with the OP is that he's new to the SDS100 (has had it only a month) and there's been confusion about finding licensed freqs to try out--even after a very good post by you with screenshots. In short, his posts are telling me that he's still learning to deal with the database and finding the actual things to try.

That's why I named a few freqs. The link he posted was for recent license grants (which may or may not yet be active), but there are quite a few more established ones in the full FCC readout. One problem with the RadioReference FCC interface in this subject area is that business conventional & trunked frequencies aren't toggled on when a user first goes to the full readout for a given county. You have to click on the category (and see the box turn from red to green) in order to toggle in those and some other categories. That, along with the wealth of info that comes from clicking on a callsign or a lat/long, can easily be lost on new users.

My own method on these things is generally to try anything licensed to the entity, then expand an additional degree to freqs found in off-the-shelf radios, and test freqs in Chinese quasi-radios. Both sets together can be scanned & eliminated quickly, and are spread out over a number of bands. Once activity is found or not, it does help in deciding what order band searches should come in. And yes, patience is a big one for elementary schools. They don't talk much, except at dismissal, so if he's dropping off his daughter in the morning as opposed to picking her up in the afternoon, it can make a big difference in the amount of traffic.

Question for you...what model radio(s) are you using in these kinds of endeavors? For me, it's the TRX-1 assisted by the PSR500.

73/Allen (N4JRI)

I'm currently using an SDS100 & 200, but in the past I've used the 436/536. He originally posted this question on the Uniden forum, and I now realize it's been moved to the Virginia forum, so howdy there Virginia folks!
 

n4jri

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I'm currently using an SDS100 & 200, but in the past I've used the 436/536. He originally posted this question on the Uniden forum, and I now realize it's been moved to the Virginia forum, so howdy there Virginia folks!

Okay, I may have to meet you over on the Uniden forum. I have a 436 I bought used years ago, but never did well with it. The TRX's Achilles heel is its searching features, and my methods for getting around that require preprogramming. With all the DMR out there, I'd love to see if the 436 have searching flexibility in the field like the PSR500.

73/Allen (N4JRI)
 

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They're not in the 'most recent 250' link that you posted. Prince William schools have numerous other frequencies that are older and more established. You need to look at the section for 'All' FCC licenses, and notice that some categories aren't automatically displayed. Make sure that you click on the red squares by 'Business Conventional' and 'Business Trunked' so that they appear green. Then just go thru the list alphabetically until you get to Prince William County schools. (probably pages 9-12) You'll also find that a lot of middle schools are on 452.55, 452.575 and 452.5875, I believe. Also found another elementary school freq, 451.175. Not sure how many more there might be.

You may well hear more than one school on the same freq from your home or car. If you need to localize your school, try monitoring the repeater input freq that's 5 MHz above the repeater output. When tuned to that, you'll be listening directly to the handhelds--and that'll likely eliminate users who aren't extremely close.

73/Allen (N4JRI)
Ahhh, thank you. I did look in the main FCC list but I guess I didn't have it set to display those.
 

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Unless I missed it, I don't believe he's been successful yet? While the information is out there, it doesn't appear it's helpful, unless of course I missed that he found what he's looking for. Custom Search is/and has been the best way to discover previous unknown frequencies. The Illinois Forum is filled with many of us who've found schools, businesses and sports stadiums. Once the information is found out, I've back tracked it to the FCC license. Many times, the company they contract is they reserve additional unused frequencies in what I'm assuming is future capacity issues. The best way is to take a small block of frequencies to search, so not to miss much.

Based on the information I've seen, I'd concentrate on the 451-454 and 461-465 Mhz. custom search for output repeaters. Since the OP is using a handheld without an external antenna, the low-power inputs might be difficult to listen to from a mile away. 4 Watts has been pretty common mobile power strength I've seen. Custom Search limits can be edited so you can isolate it to what you want. Also, Step Sizing, Modulation can also be edited. The length of time to perform Custom Search is dependent on what is in the band in the area. Cap+ rest channels, encryption, can slow down the searching speed.

I offer this solution only because it appears the other suggested methods haven't provided results. As I've mentioned, I've used it very successfully but it can be used or not, just another suggested method from someone with positive results.
I'm picking up conversations in the clear. I've identified one school, not mine though. All signals are pretty weak and the one school I've confirmed is barely a half-mile away. I'd guess I've heard 3-ish schools so far, based on the conversations. I have some more frequencies to add this week.
 

n4jri

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I'm picking up conversations in the clear. I've identified one school, not mine though. All signals are pretty weak and the one school I've confirmed is barely a half-mile away. I'd guess I've heard 3-ish schools so far, based on the conversations. I have some more frequencies to add this week.

Straight FM or DMR?
 

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Any luck on your particular school yet?
I think I got them today. Nice strong signal and a bunch of voice traffic at dismissal time. Has to be them as it's the only school nearby that's dismissing at this time.
 

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Licensed freq or other?
It was one of the licensed frequencies in the most recent list. I just haven't had time to listen lately. Imagine it's busy during drop-off and dismissal. I also suspect they're using more than one frequency at rhe school.
 
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