PMR446 Question

[dotJson]

Hello, I'm a super newb to radio. OK, so here goes. I've been looking for a legit solution for back country off-roading communication. FRS won't cut it distance-wise -- tried that. None of us are licensed for GMRS, and I kind of think paying $70 for that license would probably lead to the FCC immediately dropping the license requirement. It'd be just my luck. So with no license I haven't tried the GMRS setup. I also read about MURS, but I don't have a MURS radio, and the 2 watt limitation has me leery of it being a solution. But maybe the VHF signal would be better on the trail?

I also found PMR446. This was a new one to me but alas, .5w isn't going to cut it.

So is my only option to get a Tech license so I can talk to myself? The prospect of the others obtaining their HAM license for a casual four or five times a year gathering is nil. From the maps I've seen, most of the wilderness areas around here are repeaterless.

Of course the Chinese HT route seems tempting. Low buy-in and all, but it's apparently not type-accepted for FRS, GMRS or MURS. I'm an adult, so illegal isn't my thing.

So far it seems the options are:
Chinese HT at 8W on FRS = possibly would work but illegal
Chinese HT at 8W on GMRS = possibly would work but illegal, and the others aren't family, so all need to buy license
Chinese HT at 8W on MURS = possibly would work but illegal
Chinese HT at 8W on PMR446 = not sure if it would work but illegal anyway
Legit GMRS radio at decent power w/ license = possibly would work, IS legal, all of us buy a $70 joke license
HT at 8W on VHF w/ Tech license = possibly would work, IS legal, but still issue of licensing the others
HT at 8W on UHF w/ Tech license = possibly would work, IS legal, but still issue of licensing the others

Any suggestions? Obviously for such an infrequent encounter the cost barrier needs to be appropriately proportioned with the use case. In other words, the gear needs to be good enough to use, but not stupid expensive.

Thanks.

 

[chief21]

The new rules allow up to 2w on some FRS channels now... same as MURS. VHF (MURS) will likely work better in the woods than UHF (FRS). Your best bet might be to find some 2w MURS radios and, when possible, use them with an external antenna. The bigger antenna will probably be more effective than a few additional watts. BTW... Most of the so-called 8w radios 1) don't have good receivers and 2) probably won't do 8 watts! Higher power also drains your battery faster.

-John

 

[mmckenna]

Hello, I'm a super newb to radio. OK, so here goes. I've been looking for a legit solution for back country off-roading communication. FRS won't cut it distance-wise -- tried that. None of us are licensed for GMRS, and I kind of think paying $70 for that license would probably lead to the FCC immediately dropping the license requirement. It'd be just my luck. So with no license I haven't tried the GMRS setup. I also read about MURS, but I don't have a MURS radio, and the 2 watt limitation has me leery of it being a solution. But maybe the VHF signal would be better on the trail?

Couple of things to consider:
The FCC recently completed a rework of the GMRS rules. They considered a lot of options, including delicensing it.
End result was that the licensing is still required, and they extended the license term from 5 years to 10 years.
I would find it highly unlikely that after going through years of review, public input, etc. that the FCC would suddenly change their mind. The new rules just went into effect last month, so you are probably very safe if you choose to get your GMRS license.

As for MURS, it's a good option. Don't get hung up on power levels. That's a rookie mistake. Thinking that RF power output is directly related to range doesn't always apply.

I also found PMR446. This was a new one to me but alas, .5w isn't going to cut it.

PMR446 is primarily a European radio service. It's not legal for use in the USA. While you can find the radios on line, they are not legal for use in this country. PMR446 uses the 446MHz band. Here in the USA, that's part of the 70 centimeter amateur radio band, so if you had an amateur radio license, you could technically use it, but that's sort of pointless.

So is my only option to get a Tech license so I can talk to myself? The prospect of the others obtaining their HAM license for a casual four or five times a year gathering is nil. From the maps I've seen, most of the wilderness areas around here are repeaterless.

It really depends on what your expected usage is. If you are looking to talk to a few others on the trail, and none of those people want to get their amateur radio license, then that sort of answers that question. Amateur radio can be useful for talking to other licensed user, and you do not need repeaters to do that.

Of course the Chinese HT route seems tempting. Low buy-in and all, but it's apparently not type-accepted for FRS, GMRS or MURS. I'm an adult, so illegal isn't my thing.

So far it seems the options are:
Chinese HT at 8W on FRS = possibly would work but illegal

Yes, illegal. The FCC FRS rules require specific type accepted radios that meet the Part 95 regulations. That means 2 watts or less, non-removeable antenna, and a few other requirements that these radios will not meet.

Chinese HT at 8W on GMRS = possibly would work but illegal, and the others aren't family, so all need to buy license

Unless the radios specifically have FCC Part 95 certification, they cannot be legally used on GMRS.
As for the GMRS license, you are correct, it only covers you and your immediate family. The non-family members in your group would either need their own license, or wold have to use FRS. Since GMRS and FRS share some channels, you can legally do that.

Chinese HT at 8W on MURS = possibly would work but illegal

Like GMRS and FRS, MURS requires the radios to have FCC type certification for Part 95. Unlikely those radios have it as it's very clear that it's limited to 2 watts and cannot have any other available channels outside the 5 MURS channels.

Chinese HT at 8W on PMR446 = not sure if it would work but illegal anyway

Yep, unless you had your amateur radio license.

Legit GMRS radio at decent power w/ license = possibly would work, IS legal, all of us buy a $70 joke license

Not a joke. You could get your GMRS license and your buddies could still use FRS. The benefit is that you could have a better radio with an external antenna that would make it much easier to hear the FRS radios. Actually might be a very good option.

HT at 8W on VHF w/ Tech license = possibly would work, IS legal, but still issue of licensing the others

Correct. But don't get hung up on the 8 watts thing. An 8 watt radio will not transmit twice as far as a 4 watt radio. It doesn't work that way. If you want range, you need to have a properly installed and tuned external antenna. If you just want a hand held radio, go with MURS with a legal radio.

HT at 8W on UHF w/ Tech license = possibly would work, IS legal, but still issue of licensing the others

With the exception of FRS, which you cannot run 8 watts on, all frequencies in the UHF band are going to require some type of license, either amateur, GMRS or a business license.

Any suggestions? Obviously for such an infrequent encounter the cost barrier needs to be appropriately proportioned with the use case. In other words, the gear needs to be good enough to use, but not stupid expensive.

Thanks.

CB radio. Seriously. No licensing required. CB is "license by rule" which means if you follow the rules, you are covered.
That means everyone in your group can have their own radio and no licensing issues.
Radios are inexpensive and work well, especially out on the trails.
CB is about as universal as you can get. Pretty much the de facto standard for off road communications.
With a proper antenna (VERY important!!!) it can work very well.

If you really have to have a hand held solution, understand that using a hand held radio inside a vehicle and not having an external antenna is going to severely limit your range. Doesn't matter if it's a 2 watt radio or an 8 watt radio, it's going to suck.

So, it's really up to you. Know what your expectations are, what your budget is, and what you buddies will go for. none of this will do you any good if you don't have others to talk to.

 

[CarolinasFeedNet]

There's the option of renting radios. There's firms that do that sort thing just for short term use, supposedly they are properly licensed on Part 90 frequencies.

 

[dotJson]

Thanks, @chief21 and @mmckenna for dissecting my thoughts. It seems like you're both on to the 8W thing not being all it's cracked up to be. I get that. And I do understand that having the HT in the cab will diminish range, but unfortunately, when we're navigating somebody through a tight or technical section of trail having that radio in a spotters hand is helpful. Admittedly, at that point in time we're <25' or 30' from each other and FRS would be suitable, but it's the rolling-on-the-trail part that people get separated on and the FRS we've tried gets fringe-zone quick.

So, I guess it's time to make a pros and cons list...

Thanks for pointing out the PMR446 issue in the US. I also found that later last night in my quest to finish the Internet, but by then I had already posted this, and since new members require post moderation, I couldn't edit it, and then my Friday went south. Hopefully though you can see my wheels are turning!

I'm probably going to take the Tech test for my own benefit soon. Even though it won't really help my dilemma much I'll learn more.

Thanks guys.

 

[Jasphetamine]

Of course the Chinese HT route seems tempting. Low buy-in and all, but it's apparently not type-accepted for FRS, GMRS or MURS. I'm an adult, so illegal isn't my thing.

Cheap type accepted MURS:
https://www.amazon.com/BTECH-MURS-V...3?ie=UTF8&qid=1509167759&sr=8-3&keywords=murs

Cheap type accepted GMRS:
https://www.amazon.com/BTECH-GMRS-V...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JF4AXCZWTC7GXSNS9MZ1

Go with MURS, it is VHF which tends to enjoy outdoor settings. You really shouldn't worry about the wattage ratings, two is quite solid.

 

[Jasphetamine]

You could get your GMRS license and your buddies could still use FRS. The benefit is that you could have a better radio with an external antenna that would make it much easier to hear the FRS radios. Actually might be a very good option.

This is actually a really good point worth taking note of, because even one or two people with proper antennas, overall better front ends, and a little extra juice mixed in would facilitate coordination even if some FRS users are out of range.

For example, the better antenna/receiver of your radio would let you hear everyone, and then the better antenna/Tx power would let you notice that Alice and Bob are trying to rendezvous with Chuck, but Chuck can't raise either of them. You ask Chuck where he is, tell him to stay put, then relay that to Alice and Bob.

I'm not sure what distances or terrain you plan on using these things over, but unless you can see yourself spending the few bucks to get a GMRS license and a good radio for yourself just stick with MURS.

If it is really out in the sticks, you could also consider some proper CB rigs. CB died out because of crowded traffic and people with channel-crushing hyped up transmitters. Sort of where GMRS is going to wind up unless the FCC goes ballistic on unlicensed stations.

Anyways, once you're out in the wilderness CB sets are fine but they have to be working with proper antennas.

 

[exkalibur]

I picked up a set of Motorola PMR446 radios while in Europe this summer (I'm a licensed amateur). They're good for talking to other hams - BUT - the range isn't going to be any different than an off-the-shelf FRS radio, with the exception that you can also use higher power radios if you want.

 

[dotJson]

Thanks for the tips, guys. Much appreciated.