Power outputs on GMRS radios

[mac66]

Relatively new to GMRS but a question...

From what I read, GMRS rated radios are internally restricted to only transmit 5 watts on channel 1-7 and .5 w on channels 8-14. Channels 15-20 are open up to 50 watts.

So if you have a 5 watt hand held or up to a 50 watt mobile/base are the radios programmed to only transmit on the restricted power levels on those restricted power channels ?

If that's true for GMRS radios, can I assume if you had a ham radio that cover those frequencies those radios wouldn't be internally restricted as to power level? Or would they?

 

[nokones]

Radios that are capable of transmitting on Part 97/Amateur Radio freqs are not legal to transmit on GMRS freqs pursuant to Part 95, subpart E rules.

 

[nd5y]

It depends on the radio. Hand helds made specifically for GMRS (or FRS) won't transmit more than 0.5 W on the 467 MHz low power channels and up to 5 W on the other channels. They might have selectable power levels on the channels that aren't restricted to 0.5 W

For the few radios that are certified for Part 95 GMRS and other services it is up to the licensee to use the correct power levels.

Amateur radios and most commercial radios that don't have FCC Part 95 certification are not legal for GMRS.

Most amateur radios have several front panel selectable power levels. A few are continuously variable.

Commercial radios can vary. A few have user selectable high/low power, some have power levels that can only be changed with programming software and some can only be set internally.

One of the restrictions on FRS/GMRS 467 MHz low power channels is external antennas are not allowed. That eliminates all mobile radios and some hand helds from being able to legally transmit there.

 

[Coffeemug]

Relatively new to GMRS but a question...

From what I read, GMRS rated radios are internally restricted to only transmit 5 watts on channel 1-7 and .5 w on channels 8-14. Channels 15-20 are open up to 50 watts.

So if you have a 5 watt hand held or up to a 50 watt mobile/base are the radios programmed to only transmit on the restricted power levels on those restricted power channels ?

If that's true for GMRS radios, can I assume if you had a ham radio that cover those frequencies those radios wouldn't be internally restricted as to power level? Or would they?

As Nokones said, Any Radio that operates in the confines of FCC Part 97 Rules and Regulations is and shall not be authorized to operate anywhere else. Part 90 radios design for LMR are often used on GMRS but Part 90 radios are not authorized to be use in FCC Part 95 A B or E.
Oh, Channels 16, 18 and 20 can be used on part 90 radios, because those Channels are also in the Business Band Pool.
462.575 Ch. 02/ Ch. 16 White Dot
462.625 Ch. 04/ Ch. 18 Black Dot
462.675 Ch. 06/ Ch. 20 Orange Dot

 

[nokones]

As Nokones said, Any Radio that operates in the confines of FCC Part 97 Rules and Regulations is and shall not be authorized to operate anywhere else. Part 90 radios design for LMR are often used on GMRS but Part 90 radios are not authorized to be use in FCC Part 95 A B or E.
Oh, Channels 16, 18 and 20 can be used on part 90 radios, because those Channels are also in the Business Band Pool.
462.575 Ch. 02/ Ch. 16 White Dot
462.625 Ch. 04/ Ch. 18 Black Dot
462.675 Ch. 06/ Ch. 20 Orange Dot

Actually, Part 90 Type-Accepted radios that operate above 450 MHz and do not have Front Panel Programming capabilities may operate on Part 95, Subpart E freqs (GMRS) pursuant to Parts 95.335(a) and 95.1761(c) providing they comply with other applicable subpart E rules.

And there are no Part 95, Subpart E freqs (GMRS) listed in the Indutrial/Business Pool frequency table 90.35(b)(3).

 

[nd5y]

Oh, Channels 16, 18 and 20 can be used on part 90 radios, because those Channels are also in the Business Band Pool.
462.575 Ch. 02/ Ch. 16 White Dot
462.625 Ch. 04/ Ch. 18 Black Dot
462.675 Ch. 06/ Ch. 20 Orange Dot

I don't know where you learned that but it's totally wrong.
No GMRS frequencies were ever Part 90 business frequencies, unless it was in the 1970s or earlier.
Business (and other non-individuals) used to be eligible for GMRS licenses before about 1987.

 

[nd5y]

Actually, Part 90 Type-Accepted radios that operate above 450 MHz and do not have Front Panel Programming capabilities may operate on Part 95, Subpart E freqs (GMRS) pursuant to Parts 95.335(a) and 95.1761(c) and other applicable subpart E rules.

Only if the radio is also part 95 certified.

 

[nokones]

Only if the radio is also part 95 certified.

That is inaccurate. FCC no longer will issue a Type Acceptance for more than one radio service. That is why they have written exemption rules for specific radio services. You should read the two Part 95 rules I cited for the said Part 90 radios being allowed to use on GMRS freqs.

 

[KevinC]

Here we go…

 

[nd5y]

That is inaccurate. FCC no longer will issue a Type Acceptance for more than one radio service.

Wrong. There are a lot of radios certified for parts 22, 74, 80, and 90 and a few include 95.

You should read the two Part 95 rules I cited for the said Part 90 radios being allowed to use on GMRS freqs.

I did. It doesn't say anything about Part 90.

95.335 (a) doesn't specify what the "certain exceptions" are for GMRS, so there are none.
"Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735."
95.735 is for RCRS.
95.1735 is either a typo or refers to "§§ 95.1735-95.1739 [Reserved]" which doesn't exist.
There are currently no exceptions for GMRS.

§ 95.335 Operation of non-certified transmitters prohibited.
Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service, pursuant to part 2, subpart J of this chapter. Use of a transmitter that is not FCC-certified voids the user's authority to operate that station. See sections 302(a), (b), and (e) of the Communications Act (47 U.S.C. 302(a), (b), and (e)).

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735.

§ 95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification.
(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

(b) A grant of equipment certification for the GMRS will not be issued for any GMRS transmitter type that fails to comply with the applicable rules in this subpart.

(c) No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in § 95.1763, unless such transmitter is also certified for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. No GMRS transmitter will be certified for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with the capabilities to operate in services that do not require equipment certification, such as the Amateur Radio Service. All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.

(d) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization for hand-held portable unit transmitter types under both this subpart (GMRS) and subpart B of this part (FRS).

(e) Effective December 27, 2017, the Commission will no longer issue a grant of equipment authorization under this subpart (GMRS) for hand-held portable units if such units meet the requirements to be certified under subpart B of this part (FRS).

 

[nokones]

What do you think that this mean "transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated" as quoted in 95.335(a)? . Part 90 radios are LMR Land Mobile Radio Service radios.

Like I stated, FCC no longer certifies transmitters in more than one radio service like they use to.

 

[nokones]

I am not talking about certifying transmitters, I am quoting the rule to allow the use on GMRS freqs.

 

[mmckenna]

Actually, Part 90 Type-Accepted radios that operate above 450 MHz and do not have Front Panel Programming capabilities may operate on Part 95, Subpart E freqs (GMRS) pursuant to Parts 95.335(a) and 95.1761(c) providing they comply with other applicable subpart E rules.

And there are no Part 95, Subpart E freqs (GMRS) listed in the Indutrial/Business Pool frequency table 90.35(b)(3).

You keep quoting this part, but I don't think you've actually followed the links to the sections.

95.355 is the rule section that covers all the Personal Radio Services:

no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service.​

Key word is "that service". What service you are referring to is 95E, for GMRS.

"Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section"

So, lets look at paragraph A:

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735.​

"governing that specific radio service".

95.735 is for 95c Radio Control Radio Service, and has nothing to do with GMRS, so it does not apply to the GMRS radio service.

95.1735 is in the range of 95E, however if you look at the current FCC rules ( Federal Register :: Request Access ), 95.1735 DOES. NOT. EXIST.

95.1735 DOES. NOT. EXIST. in the current rules. So that "exception" for GMRS does not exist. Here's what you get if you look for 95.1735:

Federal Register :: Request Access

Maybe this is an FCC error (they've done it before), but the currently published rules does not include that exception for GMRS.

If you think the FCC has made an error, then you should bring it up with them. But repeatedly quoting a rule section that does not exist doesn't magically make it true.

You know what rule DOES exist? This one:

95.1761 GMRS transmitter certification.​

(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in the GMRS) must be certified in accordance with this subpart and part 2 of this chapter.

"This subpart". That's all it says. Doesn't say anything about Part 90, or Part 97, or anything else.


Look, we all know that people use Part 90 radios on GMRS. That's not an argument.

But quoting this rule as proof it's allowed, over and over again, when it doesn't say what you think it says, isn't helping your case.

 

[mmckenna]

Like I stated, FCC no longer certifies transmitters in more than one radio service like they use to.

You should probably alert the FCC that they screwed up when they granted type certification to Kenwood for this radio under Parts 22, 74 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this one, which received Parts 22, 74, 80 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Uh oh, Motorola is in on it also:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

 

[nokones]

You keep quoting this part, but I don't think you've actually followed the links to the sections.

95.355 is the rule section that covers all the Personal Radio Services:

no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service.​

Key word is "that service". What service you are referring to is 95E, for GMRS.

"Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section"

So, lets look at paragraph A:

(a) Exceptions. Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Service transmitters, or transmitters certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service. See e.g., §§ 95.735 and 95.1735.​

Why don't you stick to what you do best because interrupting the FCC Rules is not it.

 

[tweiss3]

You should probably alert the FCC that they screwed up when they granted type certification to Kenwood for this radio under Parts 22, 74 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this one, which received Parts 22, 74, 80 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Uh oh, Motorola is in on it also:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or almost all their VHF counterparts that also have Part 80 certifications in addition to the Part 90....

 

[WX9RLT]

Learned something new from this thread.

You should probably alert the FCC that they screwed up when they granted type certification to Kenwood for this radio under Parts 22, 74 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this one, which received Parts 22, 74, 80 and 90:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Or this:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

Uh oh, Motorola is in on it also:

FCC - OET TCB Form 731 Grant of Equipment Authorization

 

[mac66]

Thanks to all for the responses....

I am still unclear if the basic FRS/GMRS bubble pack radios automatically change power settings based on the channels they are on.
Does anyone know?

 

[tweiss3]

Thanks to all for the responses....

I am still unclear if the basic FRS/GMRS bubble pack radios automatically change power settings based on the channels they are on.
Does anyone know?

Typically the bubblepacks have no options for power, and therefore, change power as required by the rules. You are ok out of the box if they have the certification.

 

[nd5y]

Thanks to all for the responses....

I am still unclear if the basic FRS/GMRS bubble pack radios automatically change power settings based on the channels they are on.
Does anyone know?

It depends on the radio. You need to look at the specs. Some have user selectable low power on the channels that allow 2W or 5W max power.