Problems with 325P2

[es93546]

Bringing up the engineering & maintenance side interfacing. My last real job which was almost 4 years ago, I was on the maintenance side. We worked with many engineering groups such as data, Fire Station Alerting System, voice radio, microwave radio, power plant, building engineers, etc. From what I've seen is the engineering and maintenance side communicated well. I've also seen engineering doing maintenance type of work and the maintenance side doing engineering work. Most of the engineers were very good at what they did but they seem to forget about the maintenance or didn't have the time to put together procedures. We were constantly asking for drawings, test & alignment procedures, training, test equipment, vehicles included in the vendor contracts, etc. I took it upon myself to create test & alignment procedures for the Fire Station Alerting System 2nd generation infrastructure and fire house equipment. When I was promoted to another crew, I noticed that the techs were spending a lot of time dialing in to the various equipment such as DAC's, T-1 muxes, TenSR's, routers, etc. So I made an Aspect script in ProComm that automated the procedure and created a web page showing all the critical and major alarms, and page the person on standby. When I was promoted to Field Service Manager, the AGM and the CFO were asking for all kinds of info and reports such as how much time is spent on site maintenance versus systems or why so much time is spent at a certain site. We didn't have a ticket system that I could pull up the info or reports so I made a client-server database system using MYSQL that was used for several years. Once I made a detailed manual on reconfiguring DDS circuits to the Disaster Recovery system (back in 87) that I learned in a class. The only document I got from the class was a one page login document.


This may sound strange but one of my pet peeves at work was the techs. not communicating correctly with other groups. There were times when I heard a tech. on the phone with a customer talking about bit errors or T1#24. They don't know what that means. If a tech is talking to a field unit then it should be layman's terms. If a tech is talking to a department communications liaison then it may be a little bit more technical talk. There were times, I needed to secure funding for test equipment from the admin. section. I wouldn't say I need service monitors with the APCO25 P2 option. I would use layman's terms. Now if a person is in a "scanner forum" then it should be the same lingo and terminology. If a person is a beginner then it's up to him or her to learn the subject.

This is not an internal company type situation. This is a customer situation, a much different situation than different departments in the same company. Here on Radio Reference there is quite a bit of Wiki information to take a beginner up to some level of knowledge.

Another thing to consider is the amount of time a hobbyist has to learn a hobby. In my case I have long distance bicycling (and associated bicycle mechanics), car maintenance, ham radio, photography, backpacking, cross country skiing, peak bagging (climbing peaks with or without technical rock climbing gear), woodworking, gardening, writing and maybe a couple I've forgotten. My Canon digital camera has some pretty good instructions and that company spent a great deal of time writing the manual before selling the first unit. I learned a lot about these by reading books. In fact, I wasn't learning much about telemark skiing (a cross country or mountaineering skiing method to get down slopes) with instructors, so I took a few key copies of pages from a book about cross country skiing and taught myself.

 

[es93546]

I should also mention that customer service in the computer industry is well known for being poor. There are a lot of jokes about how poorly Microsoft instructions are. You've probably heard the one about Microsoft, its HQ building and the helicopter.

 

[ProScan]

The first time you mentioned writing a manual you estimated it would take a year. Now you are saying three years. I don't think it would take nearly a year. I suspect it would take less a period of months.

With all my other work, it will take some time and with all the features, it will take more time.
{edit} Also with all the suggestions, It will take more and I literally have years worth.

If I understood the software I would take a whack at it myself. One thing to consider is that businesses don't generally take the reception of one complaint to actually represent one person complaining. Some businesses count each complaint as one of five, ten, dozens or even hundreds of actual complaints that are never written.

I'm not sure about this. You may be right but on the other hand, people with complaints are more vocal. If something doesn't work right then all hell breaks loose. When it does work, not a word. I figure 1 complement = 9 compliments and 1 complaint = 1 complaint.

Don Starr never wrote a manual for his various GRE scanner products. Lots of people asked him to write one on his threads and a lot of people asked questions on the threads for his software. It took me quite some time to fully master his software. I would say the GRE radios were more intuitive and therefore the software was also. The Uniden BCD-325P2 is not intuitive at all.

People coming from the GRE/Whistler world do find the Uniden DMA type difficult. Visa-versa too.

This is not an internal company type situation. This is a customer situation, a much different situation than different departments in the same company. Here on Radio Reference there is quite a bit of Wiki information to take a beginner up to some level of knowledge.

Correct. a customer situation with a scanner. Like I said before, we're all in the same group. There may be times when a beginner may use the wrong thermology or doesn't have the knowledge. Many people here are very good at detailed explanations. If I had the time and/or knowledge, I would too go into detail and provide as much info as possible.

I should also mention that customer service in the computer industry is well known for being poor. There are a lot of jokes about how poorly Microsoft instructions are. You've probably heard the one about Microsoft, its HQ building and the helicopter.

I don't see it that way. It's easier and faster to do a google search then contacting customer service which may not know the answer for various reasons such as interfacing to other equipment made by another manufacturer.

 

[ProScan]

es93546,
What exactly are you are having trouble with in ProScan?
Did you look over the manual and was it addressed?

 

[es93546]

es93546,
What exactly are you are having trouble with in ProScan?
Did you look over the manual and was it addressed?

I can't recall all of them. Right off, there were no instructions about how the clipboard functions, which is one of the most valuable features I've ever used in radio programming software. I found it by accident. I had no idea I could take channels highlighted in my Starrsoft software and transfer them onto the ProScan software. The amount of time being able to transfer data from another application is huge. I worked by switching between the two applications for several months. I didn't think transferring data between applications was possible. I had transferred some from other ProScan supported scanners. If an instruction was written that if I highlighted and copied text in Starrsoft or any other applications it would show up on the ProScan clipboard I would have started using this feature months before I discovered it by accident. There is no mention in your manual about this feature.

The manual covers all sorts of things, but not basic editing tasks. There is no "Clipboard" instructions that might say, open another application, highlight the channels you would like to transfer to your ProScan database file, copy those highlighted channels, open the clipboard in ProScan and paste the channels to the clipboard. I've now forgotten exactly how to read the clipboard into the system/site channel listings. This is but one example. That didn't take long to write. Something similar to this would be very helpful.

 

[es93546]

I don't see it that way. It's easier and faster to do a google search then contacting customer service which may not know the answer for various reasons such as interfacing to other equipment made by another manufacturer.

When I do that I get hits of posts on forum threads where people don't agree about how to do something. That or I find the instructions are poor. There are hits to sites where the topic is not what you searched for. Then there are all the hits with information that doesn't apply to current versions of software. I don't find any of it helpful very often. Often the people who write the stuff don't know how to write instructions. This is a binary situation, there are those that are technically gifted and those who are not. The technically gifted people don't understand those who are not.

I had a friend who helped me for years, but I couldn't get along with him when the subject of computers came up. All the friends who he helped all stopped calling him for help. They felt stupid and they could not retain what he went over at warp speed, all while he expected you to retain it. Eventually all of us compared notes and found we had all independently stopped calling him. We just put up with our problems or called a computer company in town and paid for the help. I still do that. Subjects like networking devices can be beyond what the instructions tell or don't tell me, so I call in a tech for remote or in house assistance.

I'm not a techie, I graduated with a Bachelor's of Science in a biological field, forestry. I have about 15 masters credits and wrote a paper that was close to being a thesis. I've read the theses written by others with masters degrees and find theirs much simpler than what I had to write and was eventually approved as a major Environmental Assessment by a Regional Forester, the second highest line level in the agency. I had to follow all 5 steps of the scientific method to reach a conclusion in the assessment. It had to be approved by a committee just like a thesis. I was a wizz with aerial photo interpretation. I was excellent finding 150 year old surveying monuments in the field. My internal compass was highly functional. My map reading skills were outstanding. My writing and investigation skills were well known and regarded. However, I can't figure out how to network a new laptop or a color printer to my desktop computer so I call in some barely 20 year old from our local computer service company to do it.

I'm not alone, I would say non techies outnumber the techies.

 

[ProScan]

I can't recall all of them. Right off, there were no instructions about how the clipboard functions

I could expand on the Clipboard function. I don't see any other areas where you're having trouble or had trouble so far.

It looks like we can continue to disagree on everything.

When I do that I get hits of posts on forum threads where people don't agree about how to do something.

I think that's actually a good thing when discussing how to do something. There may be 10 ways to do something and some ways are better than others.

That or I find the instructions are poor.

That could be your perception if you're not the targeted audience. I would try finding another site.

There are hits to sites where the topic is not what you searched for. Then there are all the hits with information that doesn't apply to current versions of software. I don't find any of it helpful very often.

I google search all the time. Sometimes a site or answer isn't helpful so I just move on to the next site or hit. It's true that it may not apply to the current version. It may work better if you change the Google search page from "Any time" to "Past year" or "Past month".

Often the people who write the stuff don't know how to write instructions. This is a binary situation, there are those that are technically gifted and those who are not. The technically gifted people don't understand those who are not.

Where back on this again. I could go on and on, on this but I already tried making my point. I'm not going to continue any longer on this.

 

[fxdscon]

I would say non techies outnumber the techies.

Agreed. And yet - as Bob mentioned - only 3 complaints about his manual.

 

[jonwienke]

Copy and paste is a basic enough function that it shouldn't require an elaborate explanation in the manual, any more than the need to turn the computer on before running the program. If you're unclear on how it works, taking a basic computer literacy course would make far more sense than whining because an application manual expects you to understand a basic computer function.

 

[es93546]

Thanks to all that shared their opinions.

"jonwienke," of course cutting and pasting is basic skill that I learned in the mid 1980's when computers were first available in my workspace. Copying and pasting data between different radio programming applications from 2 separate manufacturers is something different. I've tried it before and was not successful. For example, I can't take channels I've copied on my Yaesu mobile radios and paste the data into my Kenwood handheld programming application. For ProScan I copied channels from my Starrsoft application for a GRE PSR-500/600 radio and pasted it into the ProScan for a BCD325P. Nothing in the manual pointed me there. It's an outstanding feature, but without instructions I didn't discover it for months. I was used to having problems transferring data from GRE to GRE scanners, such as from a PRO-92 to a PRO-96. However, the Starrsoft website listed a free application product that enabled, sort of, doing this transfer. There were instructions with the product that took me through the process.

If most folks on this site picks this stuff up by osmosis or by the extensive experience with computers, that is great. However, when I read through many threads, especially where beginners post, some people struggle with their radios. The instructions for the BCD325P are terrible. I bought it back in November, 2020 and there are many things I haven't figured out yet. I know the extensive memory capacity may work very well when I travel, but I still don't understand how to bring up, for example, system 43, which I would need if I visit the area I worked in when I lived in New Mexico. It seems like a lot of manual assume a certain level of knowledge. Making this type of assumption is not a good business approach. You have to address those who are intelligent in certain subjects and those that are not.

Bob has the most outstanding radio programming software I've ever come across. It might be even better than I realize as there might be other features I haven't found by accident yet. This is due to a lack of instructions. I have to bow out of the discussion as people aren't really putting themselves in the shoes of others. I often get an impression that people are thinking, "well I figured it out, what's your problem?"

 

[fxdscon]

I often get an impression that people are thinking, "well I figured it out, what's your problem?"

If they are, it may be because you're really making this whole process so much more difficult than it really is.

 

[ProScan]

For ProScan I copied channels from my Starrsoft application for a GRE PSR-500/600 radio and pasted it into the ProScan for a BCD325P. Nothing in the manual pointed me there.

Of course not. That what I was talking about, that customer service may not know about the interfacing to other manufactures. The manual mentions the Windows Clipboard. Since you know about cut & paste then you should know that cut & paste copies to the Win Clipboard.

 

[ProScan]

Bob has the most outstanding radio programming software I've ever come across. It might be even better than I realize as there might be other features I haven't found by accident yet. This is due to a lack of instructions. I have to bow out of the discussion as people aren't really putting themselves in the shoes of others.

There's not really any hidden features in ProScan other then perhaps mouse right clicking on the database tree view items and the database channel grids.

 

[SDBud]

The Uniden BCD-325P2 is not intuitive at all.

Too YOU, obviously. NOT to many others. GRE radios suck.

 

[iMONITOR]

This thread had gone so far off topic it should probably should be closed. My coffee went cold trying to get through all of this!

 

[fxdscon]

I have to bow out of the discussion as people aren't really putting themselves in the shoes of others.

You previously stated that there are many more non-techies using the software than those that are technically inclined. Perhaps it is you who should be putting yourself in the shoes of so many others that aren't having these problems, and asking yourself.... why am I having such a hard time with all of this - what am I doing wrong? How are other non-techies able to learn about scanners and software that they haven't used previously? Folks here are trying to help you and give you good advice, but you seem to be putting up a wall around yourself - insisting that other things have to change.

This advice was given to you during your previous go-around with all of this last September, and it seems that it still applies....

With the high level of technology involved with modern radio systems, the scanners that monitor the multitude of protocols in use by those systems, and the software that has to address and incorporate all of that.... you can't expect that one single source is going to spoon feed you every single spec of knowledge, terminology, variables, and experience involved with all of this. If you do expect that, you're in the wrong hobby.

A little research, trial and error, and patience on your part, instead of placing blame where it truly doesn't belong, would bring you a long way. The rest of us non-techies all had to learn that way... it's really not that difficult.

You have even lauded your own skills for us:

My writing and investigation skills were well known and regarded.

Why are your "investigation skills" not functioning here? You have put so much wasted time and effort into your numerous posting essays explaining many times why the situation is everyone else's fault. Again, if you would try putting all of that time and effort into refining your search skills and doing the research and investigation that everyone else realizes is part of ANY hobby , you will learn so much!

 

[ProScan]

This is a binary situation, there are those that are technically gifted and those who are not. The technically gifted people don't understand those who are not.

I never understood how the techie communicates with the non techie ever got into the conversation in the first place.

"technically gifted and those who are not" is not binary because there's different levels of both. It's more like a scale from 0 to 10 with 0 = total non techie and 10 = expert. A beginner may start off at 0 and move up as knowledge is gained.

 

[es93546]

You have even lauded your own skills for us:


Why are your "investigation skills" not functioning here? You have put so much wasted time and effort into your numerous posting essays explaining many times why the situation is everyone else's fault. Again, if you would try putting all of that time and effort into refining your search skills and doing the research and investigation that everyone else realizes is part of ANY hobby , you will learn so much!

I only "lauded" my own skills to indicate that I have some intelligence accomplishing other tasks and not someone who struggled with them. During my career I investigated law and regulation violations, misconduct by employees, human caused wildland fires and accidents. I've put a lot of time in learning radio as I purchased my first scanner in 1970 and built my first crystal radio when I was 12. When Heathkit was still around I built several of those, including an auto analyzer and timing light. Building them was easy as they had outstanding instructions. I perform major tune ups by purchasing the service guides for each car, which have had very good instructions, complete with drawings. I do most of the plumbing and electrical maintenance around the house and I have some excellent books to guide me when I'm doing something I haven't done before or for a long time.

I've learned a lot about computers by reading the "PC's for Dummies" book. It provides instructions that computer techie people would scoff at. It starts at the beginning for beginners. I just flipped it open and immediately saw the page heading "Chapter 9: Learning about the Monitor (That TV Thing)." The entire "For Dummies" series of books is because some people struggle with a wide range of tasks.

I comment here because I know a lot of people who have lots of skills, but struggle with using computers. Computers are aggravating. Like a lot of people I have a love/hate relationship to computers. They don't seem at all logical for a large portion of the population. I've found that a lot of people on this website are not in that group. The last series of comments made after my last reflect what I said, "well I figured it out, what's your problem?" It reminds me of what I've heard at downhill and cross country ski areas for decades. You have a person at the top of a blue diamond or even a black diamond run who is obviously quite intimidated by the slope below and a "friend" who is saying, "come on do it, I can do it, it's not that hard." That is the cardinal sin of taking friends/family members skiing, yet I've heard dozens of times. When anything is not easy for someone you don't tell them "well I can do it . . . . "

After getting my ham license I got hooked on Yaesu radios. They are difficult to use and to remember how to operate. I say this as I later purchased a Kenwood TH-F6. I wish all my Yaesu radios were Kenwoods. They are far more user friendly and intuitive. I bought a TH-F6 for my wife, who barely passed her tech license exam and doesn't like the Yaesu mobiles we have in each car.

All I want it some decent instructions, both for the ProScan application and for the BCD325P2. That is why I'm writing these comments. I'm obviously writing to those who think computer and technical tasks are easy or who can research things with little effort. I understand that some will get defensive when I do.

Too YOU, obviously. NOT to many others. GRE radios suck.

I've found GRE radios to be outstanding. I've found some Uniden scanners to be outstanding as well, I've owned at least a dozen. The 3 BC-760's were my mobile scanners of choice for many years. My BC-200 handheld wore out (unrepairable keypad) because it was used it so much. I started using GRE scanners when the PRO-92 came out. The PSR-500/600s are my scanner of choice in the rural areas I've lived in. They are far more sensitive and pick up weaker signals than the Uniden radios I've owned. There is a site 60 miles north of me that has 3 mountain ridges in between my home and it. I can pick up Caltrans on 800 MHz from that site with a 2m/70cm roof mounted ground plane antenna. When I've put the 780 on the same antenna it does not receive anything on 800 MHz from that site. I've helped many people in town with their GRE's, programming them as they don't understand frequencies, tones, AGC, trunking . . . . . I've owned some Unidens that are not outstanding such as the 780, whose tone scan is useless and knobs that broke in a year or two. When I called Uniden I received some incredibly poor customer service. I also experienced similar with some of their handheld telephones and answering machines. Uniden built the PRO-2052 for Radio Shack and it is nearly useless. I've noticed that whenever a beginner asks for scanner recommendations here on Radio Reference that nearly everyone answers with Uniden. In my opinion that is an unfounded bias.

 

[iMONITOR]

 

[es93546]

I know I'm paddling a raft upstream.