Programming older radios

[abn1304]

Good afternoon all,

I apologize if this is a rehash of anything posted prior. I did a quick scan and didn't see anything that directly answers my question, but I'm brand new to civilian radio operations. My only previous experience is as a military radio operator.

I run (just started) a small nonprofit. Our mission is to provide advanced training and capabilities for first responders (all of us are prior military). As a nonprofit startup, financial resources are extremely limited, so I can't afford brand-new radios. Our primary use for radios (for now) is strictly tactical communications - think range operations and fireteam communications during training.

I have an XTS3000R that I'd like to use. I called Motorola and they said they no longer have software that can program these radios, and referred me to a vendor to buy a new radio. I can't really afford that, and would like to find (i.e. purchase) programming software for the XTS3000 if at all possible. Since Motorola can't help me, I'm hoping someone here knows where to purchase support options for legacy radios. Ideally, I'd really like to have encrypted solutions available.

Failing that, we need an affordable solution for tactical communications for training purposes.

We don't have a license yet, I'm working on that. There is some urgency to this given the current COVID crisis, which we are providing assistance/support for. I'd like to know what my options are before paying licensing fees in case I screw something up and have to go back and redo the licensing process. I'm really not an expert at this, so any advice would be appreciated; this is an entirely new world from military operations where I had an S6 sitting one door down.

Thanks in advance!

 

[abn1304]

To add, this particular radio is a VHF radio. Some of our operations will be in pretty mountainous areas.

 

[mmckenna]

We don't have a license yet, I'm working on that. There is some urgency to this given the current COVID crisis, which we are providing assistance/support for. I'd like to know what my options are before paying licensing fees in case I screw something up and have to go back and redo the licensing process. I'm really not an expert at this, so any advice would be appreciated; this is an entirely new world from military operations where I had an S6 sitting one door down.

Thanks in advance!

I'd strongly caution you against procuring radios, software, programming cables, etc. UNTIL after you have worked out the licensing.
FCC licensing isn't a free for all where you get to pick the band/frequency. With the exception of itinerant licenses, you will need to work with a frequency coordinator to identify an available frequency and then file for the FCC license. Where the coordinator finds available frequencies can depend on a number of things, so don't assume it will be in the VHF band. In some areas, assigned VHF frequencies may not be available. I just went through this in California, trying to find useable VHF frequency pairs for a police radio system has not gone well.

You need to decide what you are looking for, first. Buying radios and then doing the licensing is backwards.
If you want your own VHF channel that isn't shared with others, then you will need to work with a frequency coordinator. There is no exception to this.
If you do not mind sharing a channel with others, then you MAY qualify for an itinerant license which does not require frequency coordination. Those still require FCC licenses (again, no exceptions due to budget, volunteer, size of organization, usage, urgency, COVID, etc)

Itinerant frequencies would probably be just fine. You can set up the radios to use a coded (tone) squelch to keep you from hearing most other users, but understanding it's a shared resource is necessary.


If you are actively working with a local, state or federal public safety agency, you MAY be able to borrow some radios from them to handle the current situation, but you would be operating under their license.

We can point you to some FCC frequency coordinators if that is the direction you want to go. If itinerant licensing will work, then I'd still suggest working with a local radio shop to do the licensing. It's not impossible to do yourself, but it can be very complex for the newcomer. You'll save a lot of headaches and time by paying someone knowledgeable to do the paperwork and filing for you.

Good luck.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Opening up a bit of a can-o-worms.

Let's take a look at the XTS3000. The CPS will only run on a 32 bit computer (that's because the last revision to the CPS was in 2008 when Windows XP was the hottest thing and very few had 64 bit machines). Those radios are also software upgrade-able in what they are capable of. For example, while most of the Astro line (Astro Spectra, Astro Saber and XTS3000) was P25 capable doesn't mean it was flashed (optioned) for P25. In the same way, all of the radios were capable of using encryption but it doesn't mean they were flashed for it. To flash a radio, you have to purchase the upgrade from Motorola. That's the only legal way to do it. If the radio is no longer supported, you can't really do that.

I'd go off of @mmckenna's suggestion and then find an intermediate solution based on your immediate needs (encryption is not an immediate need) and go from there.

 

[MTS2000des]

If you are actively working with a local, state or federal public safety agency, you MAY be able to borrow some radios from them to handle the current situation, but you would be operating under their license.

This is probably the best advice. Many agencies have cache radios that can be deployed to authorized agencies and VOADs provided there is an MOU/IGA in place. You're covered under their license provided the use is consistent with responding to the served agency needs and for authorized use as defined in the IGA/MOU.

 

[abn1304]

I'd strongly caution you against procuring radios, software, programming cables, etc. UNTIL after you have worked out the licensing.
FCC licensing isn't a free for all where you get to pick the band/frequency. With the exception of itinerant licenses, you will need to work with a frequency coordinator to identify an available frequency and then file for the FCC license. Where the coordinator finds available frequencies can depend on a number of things, so don't assume it will be in the VHF band. In some areas, assigned VHF frequencies may not be available. I just went through this in California, trying to find useable VHF frequency pairs for a police radio system has not gone well.

You need to decide what you are looking for, first. Buying radios and then doing the licensing is backwards.
If you want your own VHF channel that isn't shared with others, then you will need to work with a frequency coordinator. There is no exception to this.
If you do not mind sharing a channel with others, then you MAY qualify for an itinerant license which does not require frequency coordination. Those still require FCC licenses (again, no exceptions due to budget, volunteer, size of organization, usage, urgency, COVID, etc)

Itinerant frequencies would probably be just fine. You can set up the radios to use a coded (tone) squelch to keep you from hearing most other users, but understanding it's a shared resource is necessary.


If you are actively working with a local, state or federal public safety agency, you MAY be able to borrow some radios from them to handle the current situation, but you would be operating under their license.

We can point you to some FCC frequency coordinators if that is the direction you want to go. If itinerant licensing will work, then I'd still suggest working with a local radio shop to do the licensing. It's not impossible to do yourself, but it can be very complex for the newcomer. You'll save a lot of headaches and time by paying someone knowledgeable to do the paperwork and filing for you.

Good luck.

If you could point me towards coordinators, please do. That would be helpful, thanks.

I anticipate working with public safety agencies, but we will be providing our own equipment and in-house capabilities, not using someone else's, full stop (we may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis but not as a rule of thumb). If that's a long-term solution, cool, our funding will open up significantly in the next year or so.

My understanding from reading the FCC website is I need to have my infrastructure in place before I can apply for a license so the FCC knows what they're working with (Industrial / Business Licensing). That's part of why I'm asking here, so that I can learn what I need to do to set that up. So basically I need to work with a frequency coordinator to figure out, in advance, what bands I can use, set up a theoretical infrastructure, get the license, and then actually purchase the infrastructure?

I probably should have broken this into two threads, but figured I'd get jumped for asking "how program radio" without background context.

I'm okay with using itinerant freqs, and that will probably be the most appropriate solution for our mobile training teams.

Appreciate the insight, thanks!

For example, while most of the Astro line (Astro Spectra, Astro Saber and XTS3000) was P25 capable doesn't mean it was flashed (optioned) for P25. In the same way, all of the radios were capable of using encryption but it doesn't mean they were flashed for it. To flash a radio, you have to purchase the upgrade from Motorola. That's the only legal way to do it. If the radio is no longer supported, you can't really do that.

So I've seen Astros including 3000s floating around elsewhere, I'm pretty sure my old fire department had some running around. So I was a bit surprised to hear they're no longer supported. What software programs them? Am I just misremembering seeing them still in service? The CS rep (not a tech guy) claimed they haven't been supported since 2010.

If not, what would be a better (affordable) radio to look for, 5000s? Or should I wait to start working on radio comms until we can purchase from a dealer? Outside of limited time with a volunteer fire department, I've only used 152s and SINCGARs and we definitely won't have the budget for those... lol.

Again, thanks for the insight all, much appreciated.

 

[buddrousa]

And you talk to the coordinator 1st then the FCC
Most Radios over 10 to 15 years old are not supported.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

So I've seen Astros including 3000s floating around elsewhere, I'm pretty sure my old fire department had some running around. So I was a bit surprised to hear they're no longer supported. What software programs them? Am I just misremembering seeing them still in service? The CS rep (not a tech guy) claimed they haven't been supported since 2010.

If not, what would be a better (affordable) radio to look for, 5000s? Or should I wait to start working on radio comms until we can purchase from a dealer? Outside of limited time with a volunteer fire department, I've only used 152s and SINCGARs and we definitely won't have the budget for those... lol.

Again, thanks for the insight all, much appreciated.

Somewhere around 2010 is when the Astro's and 3000's went out of support (the Astros came out in 1994 and the XTS's came about in 1996 or 1997).

The XTL5000 and XTS5000 went out of support about 18 months ago. The rest of the XTL/XTS line went out about 6 months ago.

 

[jim202]

If you know the people on the fire department there, you might ask around and get a hold of Bill Purcell. He lives just north of there and might be able to help walk you through the steps. He might even know people to point you to. The dispatch center there should know him or ask to talk with fire chief Charles Warner. He is a good friend of Bill's.

Jim

 

[mmckenna]

If you could point me towards coordinators, please do. That would be helpful, thanks.

Sure...

Industrial / Business Licensing

LicensingIndividuals or entities desiring to operate on frequencies listed in the Industrial/Business Pool are required to obtain a radio station license for these frequencies.Below is some helpful information to aid you with the licensing process.

www.fcc.gov

Click on the Frequency Coordinators tab and then scroll down. IMSA is probably where I'd start.

I anticipate working with public safety agencies, but we will be providing our own equipment and in-house capabilities, not using someone else's, full stop (we may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis but not as a rule of thumb). If that's a long-term solution, cool, our funding will open up significantly in the next year or so.

OK, so make sure you let the frequency coordinator know that.
It does create some challenges, since public safety agencies can be spread all over the spectrum.
Even with your own FCC license, it will only cover the frequencies you are licensed for. Any interoperability will need to be worked out with the agencies you are working with. That means you will need to have signed agreements with each agency that permit you to utilize their radio systems under their license.
There are some interoperability channels, but as a business you will not qualify for those on your own. Those are for public safety agencies only.

My understanding from reading the FCC website is I need to have my infrastructure in place before I can apply for a license so the FCC knows what they're working with (Industrial / Business Licensing). That's part of why I'm asking here, so that I can learn what I need to do to set that up. So basically I need to work with a frequency coordinator to figure out, in advance, what bands I can use, set up a theoretical infrastructure, get the license, and then actually purchase the infrastructure?

It's easy to misunderstand the FCC stuff unless you have a lot of experience with their way of documenting things.
So, yeah, first step is to talk to one of the frequency coordinators on the link above. They'll work with you to determine your needs. They'll do the leg work to find available frequencies in your area. Once you have that done, use the same coordinator to do the license filing. Much easier that way. They have the experience and will save you a considerable amount of time.

After all that is done, talk to SEVERAL reputable radio shops that support different manufacturers. Do NOT shop by brand unless you have an unlimited budget and you really want to blow through it as fast as you can. A good radio shop will design a system for you based off the license. Some radio shops will offer to do the licensing, but they'll likely tack on a surcharge.

I probably should have broken this into two threads, but figured I'd get jumped for asking "how program radio" without background context.

No problem, we understand.

I'm okay with using itinerant freqs, and that will probably be the most appropriate solution for our mobile training teams.

Appreciate the insight, thanks!

OK, well it's still a good idea to talk to a frequency coordinator. They may agree with you and assist you getting the itinerant licenses. They'll still save you a lot of headaches on the licensing. Radio shops -should- be able to do the itinerant licensing also, but not all will. Also, make sure the license is in your company name, and that it's issued to you, not the radio shop.

So I've seen Astros including 3000s floating around elsewhere, I'm pretty sure my old fire department had some running around. So I was a bit surprised to hear they're no longer supported. What software programs them? Am I just misremembering seeing them still in service? The CS rep (not a tech guy) claimed they haven't been supported since 2010.

There probably are still a lot of them still in service. I know one of the sheriffs offices a few counties up from me has been using them recently. But they are old radios.
And if you are going to be buying old radios, understand that there are some issues you'll need to address:
-Your company's FCC license requires all equipment under that license to work within specific specifications. As radios age, the electronic components will deteriorate. Any radio will do this, and they require periodic realignment to stay functioning properly and to keep them from interfering with others on adjacent frequencies. If you do buy old radios, make sure they get a trip to a radio shop to be realigned.
-Any used radios will need new batteries if you are going to rely on them. Consider the cost of new batteries when looking at old radios.
-Antennas are a "consumable" item. Any used radio you buy should get a brand new antenna from the manufacturer that is designed for the frequencies you are using.

If not, what would be a better (affordable) radio to look for, 5000s? Or should I wait to start working on radio comms until we can purchase from a dealer? Outside of limited time with a volunteer fire department, I've only used 152s and SINCGARs and we definitely won't have the budget for those... lol.

Unless you have a bottomless budget, you really should look at other manufacturers. Motorola makes nice stuff, but you'll pay dearly for it. There are a lot of other manufacturers that make perfectly good radios that are less expensive.
Harris
Kenwood
Tait
Bendix King
etc.

If any sort of mission critical work is in your plan, you really should be looking at new equipment. Especially if safety is involved. Buying used radios off e-Bay can be a real crap shoot.

 

[abn1304]

OK, so make sure you let the frequency coordinator know that.
It does create some challenges, since public safety agencies can be spread all over the spectrum.
Even with your own FCC license, it will only cover the frequencies you are licensed for. Any interoperability will need to be worked out with the agencies you are working with. That means you will need to have signed agreements with each agency that permit you to utilize their radio systems under their license.
There are some interoperability channels, but as a business you will not qualify for those on your own. Those are for public safety agencies only.

Okay great, thanks. We are looking into getting licensed as a public safety agency. I realize that is a complex endeavor and will raise some eyebrows. That is a discussion for elsewhere and definitely a long-term plan. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But that is part of why I'd like to build a VHF or at least VHF-capable system.

It's easy to misunderstand the FCC stuff unless you have a lot of experience with their way of documenting things.
So, yeah, first step is to talk to one of the frequency coordinators on the link above. They'll work with you to determine your needs. They'll do the leg work to find available frequencies in your area. Once you have that done, use the same coordinator to do the license filing. Much easier that way. They have the experience and will save you a considerable amount of time.

After all that is done, talk to SEVERAL reputable radio shops that support different manufacturers. Do NOT shop by brand unless you have an unlimited budget and you really want to blow through it as fast as you can. A good radio shop will design a system for you based off the license. Some radio shops will offer to do the licensing, but they'll likely tack on a surcharge.

All good to know, thanks. Figured going to a radio shop would be like going to a gun store. Looks like I have a lot of learning to do!

There probably are still a lot of them still in service. I know one of the sheriffs offices a few counties up from me has been using them recently. But they are old radios.
And if you are going to be buying old radios, understand that there are some issues you'll need to address:
-Your company's FCC license requires all equipment under that license to work within specific specifications. As radios age, the electronic components will deteriorate. Any radio will do this, and they require periodic realignment to stay functioning properly and to keep them from interfering with others on adjacent frequencies. If you do buy old radios, make sure they get a trip to a radio shop to be realigned.
-Any used radios will need new batteries if you are going to rely on them. Consider the cost of new batteries when looking at old radios.
-Antennas are a "consumable" item. Any used radio you buy should get a brand new antenna from the manufacturer that is designed for the frequencies you are using.

Tracking all, just like mil radios. We went through a loooooot of batteries. Antennas weren't a whole lot better, and cables were virtually an expendable item... lol.

So how are in-service radios being maintained without vendor support?

Unless you have a bottomless budget, you really should look at other manufacturers. Motorola makes nice stuff, but you'll pay dearly for it. There are a lot of other manufacturers that make perfectly good radios that are less expensive.
Harris
Kenwood
Tait
Bendix King
etc.

There are two reasons I'm looking at Motorolas. One is that the market is flooded with cheap used ones (good for training use, if they can be programmed). The other is that I know I can beat them up pretty hard (like, put them on a plate carrier and run a tactical lane) and they'll be fine. I honestly don't know anything about Harris' civilian options, the only Harris radios I have any familiarity with cost more than your average car. If I could afford /those/ we'd be using them.

Thanks for the info, will do some more homework.

If any sort of mission critical work is in your plan, you really should be looking at new equipment. Especially if safety is involved. Buying used radios off e-Bay can be a real crap shoot.

For anything really operational where safety is involved, yeah, we'll be rolling with new equipment, but for now we're just looking at training and noncritical communications. It will be at least a year before we're doing anything where an unreliable radio will be a real safety hazard.

If you know the people on the fire department there, you might ask around and get a hold of Bill Purcell. He lives just north of there and might be able to help walk you through the steps. He might even know people to point you to. The dispatch center there should know him or ask to talk with fire chief Charles Warner. He is a good friend of Bill's.

So I actually did my volunteering in James City County. I'm new to Charlottesville, my day job is with the Army here. I'd like to volunteer but won't be able to for a little while for scheduling reasons. If you know people in the area, I'd love to get linked in with them, both for knowledge and because I think (once the current crisis is over) we can offer valuable training to the local FD/rescue squads.

Thanks all for your patience as I learn!

 

[mmckenna]

Okay great, thanks. We are looking into getting licensed as a public safety agency. I realize that is a complex endeavor and will raise some eyebrows. That is a discussion for elsewhere and definitely a long-term plan. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But that is part of why I'd like to build a VHF or at least VHF-capable system.

I understand your desire, but that won't play into it. That's not the way frequency coordination works.

So how are in-service radios being maintained without vendor support?

If it's a big enough agency, they have guys like me and others on this site that do that for them. A lot of large agencies have radio techs that maintain the equipment, align radios, and do repairs. They'll often stock parts to do their own repairs, too.
And this is why you'll find a lot of those old XTS radios on e-Bay, once they go out of support, they get difficult to repair, so agencies tend to dump them and go with newer/supported radios.

There are two reasons I'm looking at Motorolas. One is that the market is flooded with cheap used ones (good for training use, if they can be programmed). The other is that I know I can beat them up pretty hard (like, put them on a plate carrier and run a tactical lane) and they'll be fine.

Well, like I said above, there's often reasons why they get dumped on the used market. Nothing wrong if you can get ones that work well, but if they need service/repairs, you may end up stuck with a lot of expensive doorstops.

And Motorola is fine if that is what you are comfortable with. But there's nothing magical about them. Talk to a fire agency, and they'll probably recommend Kenwood or Bendix King. Plenty of those that get burned, run over by engines, etc. They'll tell you the same thing.

For anything really operational where safety is involved, yeah, we'll be rolling with new equipment, but for now we're just looking at training and noncritical communications. It will be at least a year before we're doing anything where an unreliable radio will be a real safety hazard.

Then go cheap. There's a lot of lower tier radios out there that will work just fine for non-critical applications. A new one with new accessories and a 3 year warranty can often be had for less than the price of a used Motorola XTS. Talk to the radio shop and they'll even program them for free.
Save your budget and use it for the right radios when the time is right.

 

[DeoVindice]

If you could point me towards coordinators, please do. That would be helpful, thanks.

I anticipate working with public safety agencies, but we will be providing our own equipment and in-house capabilities, not using someone else's, full stop (we may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis but not as a rule of thumb). If that's a long-term solution, cool, our funding will open up significantly in the next year or so.

My understanding from reading the FCC website is I need to have my infrastructure in place before I can apply for a license so the FCC knows what they're working with (Industrial / Business Licensing). That's part of why I'm asking here, so that I can learn what I need to do to set that up. So basically I need to work with a frequency coordinator to figure out, in advance, what bands I can use, set up a theoretical infrastructure, get the license, and then actually purchase the infrastructure?

I probably should have broken this into two threads, but figured I'd get jumped for asking "how program radio" without background context.

I'm okay with using itinerant freqs, and that will probably be the most appropriate solution for our mobile training teams.

Appreciate the insight, thanks!



So I've seen Astros including 3000s floating around elsewhere, I'm pretty sure my old fire department had some running around. So I was a bit surprised to hear they're no longer supported. What software programs them? Am I just misremembering seeing them still in service? The CS rep (not a tech guy) claimed they haven't been supported since 2010.

If not, what would be a better (affordable) radio to look for, 5000s? Or should I wait to start working on radio comms until we can purchase from a dealer? Outside of limited time with a volunteer fire department, I've only used 152s and SINCGARs and we definitely won't have the budget for those... lol.

Again, thanks for the insight all, much appreciated.

If your training teams will be traveling across the region to train client personnel, this is the exact use case for itinerant frequencies. Bear in mind that your use of these frequencies is not on an exclusive basis; there will be other users on the frequency (unless you're one of those weirdos like me who likes low band) so CTCSS tones are an absolute must. With itinerant frequencies, you can pick and choose which frequencies and bands you use from a list without going through frequency coordination. The license fee is about $170 for ten years, and you'll be able to operate under conditional authority ten days after filing. The license grant with your callsign may take a month or so to clear for an IG license.

mmckenna's recommendation to have a radio shop handle the licensing is a very wise one. The licensing process is a headache (seriously, I got a headache filling out the application) and they'll do a better job. You'd need to learn what frequencies you can use on itinerant basis, which emission designators you plan to use, as well as ERP and station class restrictions for chosen frequencies, and navigate the remarkably clunky ULS application process.

As far as other radios, I'm partial to Kenwood equipment; Kenwood is less possessive of their software than Motorola. The TK-2180/3180 is available quite affordably on the used market, and was only EOL'd by Kenwood within the last year or two. They also have analog scramblers built-in to prevent casual eavesdropping. If you don't have experience programming commercial two-way, as well as an understanding of radio fundamentals, I'd strongly encourage you to use a radio shop for programming to avoid causing interference or undesirable operation. For my system, I mainly use TK-380s and TK-390s on the UHF side of things - they're cheap, narrowband-capable, durable, and relatively straightforward to program.

If I were in your position, I would license some or all of the available VHF itinerants for nationwide or statewide analog operation and buy a half-dozen TK-2180s (or other affordable used radios, your radio shop can help you out there). Don't hesitate to shop around for radio shops; the service you get from them is more important than brand loyalty.