Prohibited GMRS Usage Question

[K4EET]

I may be letting my mind wander too much, but I am wondering...

In an Emergency Situation, what does this rule under "§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses" allow the GMRS operator to do? Looking for specific and detailed informational scenario (one or more examples please). More to the point, why is the Amateur Radio Service, any unauthorized station and any foreign station specifically mentioned? Thanks in advance! Dave

47 CFR 95.1733(a)(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station

P.S.: If you need the complete Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) that is searchable, you can find it here: eCFR :: Home

 

[mmckenna]

§95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.
(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in §95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:
-
(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station;


Interpreting this sort of stuff can get tricky. I'm not sure anyone of us an accurately guess what the FCC was thinking. I've found that sometimes if you do some reading above and below a specific section, you can often get a better view of what they were thinking when the wrote the rules.

Specifically:
§95.1731 Permissible GMRS uses.
The operator of a GMRS station may use that station for two-way plain language voice communications with other GMRS stations and with FRS units concerning personal or business activities.

(a) Emergency communications. Any GMRS channel may be used for emergency communications or for traveler assistance. Operators of GMRS stations must, at all times and on all channels, give priority to emergency communications.

95.1731 clearly states that GMRS and FRS can communicate concerning personal or business activities
Section A covers using the GMRS radio for emergencies.

If you consider that, then consider:
§95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.
(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in §95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:
-
(9) Messages (except emergency messages) to any station in the Amateur Radio Service, to any unauthorized station, or to any foreign station;

My understanding is that they are saying messages should not be passed from a GMRS radio to a user in the amateur radio service. In other words, carrying on a cross service conversation, say where a GMRS user would transmit on their GMRS channel while listening to an amateur radio frequency, and the amateur radio operator transmitting on an amateur frequency and listening on a GRS channel.
In other words, no combining the services.

Unless it's an emergency. And often there are entries in the rules to cover emergencies. It doesn't mean 95.1733 makes it OK for a GMRS licensee to use their radio on amateur frequencies without a ham license. It just means in an emergency, traffic can be passed two way using GMRS and ham, -in-an-emergency-.

There gets to be even more confusing stuff down in Part 2, but I won't go into that.

 

[K4EET]

Thank you very much @mmckenna! What you say makes perfect sense. At least it makes more sense than what I was thinking.

I should refrain from reading the various Parts in Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) as bedtime reading material. LOL!

73, Dave K4EET

 

[sloop]

Some time ago this question was debated on this forum about 'emergency communication' restrictions and who can operate where in time of emergency. The question was sent to the FCC. I'm sure that this is applicable to other forms of regulated communications..

Sometime ago a question was ask on a communications blog. Here is the question and answer.

Question: Can amateurs modify their radios and use them in time of emergency on public service frequencies (e.g. police, fire, etc.)

This question was referred to the Wireless Telecommunications Bureau of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Here is their answer.

“Your question was referred to me because it concerns the Commission’s amateur radio rules.”

“Section 97.105(b) answers your question: ‘A station may only be operated in the manner and to the extent permitted by the privileges for the class of operator’s license held by the control operator.’ Control operator privileges are specified in Section 97.301.”

“Section 97.403 ‘…applies to amateur frequencies only. For example; a technician may operate an extra class frequency in time of emergency…not non-amateur frequencies.”

“Part 97 does not contain any “privileges authorized” for amateur radio operators that include Part 90 or Part 95 frequencies. Part 90 and Part 95 both require the use of certified equipment. See Section 90.203 and 95.409. Use of modified amateur radio transceivers on Part 90 or 95 frequencies violates the rules because modified amateur radio equipment is not certified for either Part 90 or 95 radio services.”

“As you note, “The rules are clear that in order to use Part 90 or 95 spectrum, the operator must have the correct licensing and certified radios to use those services.” The debate y0u are referring to, therefore, comes down to “How can we get around the rules?” The answer is, “You can’t.” We will be happy to relieve you of thousands of dollars and your amateur radio license if you transmit on channels you are not licensed to transmit on.”

So it would appear that there are no exceptions for “in time of emergency” situations. The best advice is to use a cell phone or contact an amateur with a telephone in his shack.

 

[Hit_Factor]

So it would appear that there are no exceptions for “in time of emergency” situations. The best advice is to use a cell phone or contact an amateur with a telephone in his shack.

There are exceptions - but it would be handled on a case by case basis.

Let's say I came across a Police Officer unconscious in his cruiser. I used the Officer's radio to call for help. I'm not licensed to do so. But no one will care.

I think the foreign station prohibition has to do with the lack treaties.

 

[WB9YBM]

If I understand the rules correctly, we have a certain amount of flexibility when there's an actual emergency--so far, so good. So let's say we perceive an emergency and operate accordingly. In spite our best intentions, what's to stop some FCC monitor, who's had a bad day and wants to get all snarky, to cause trouble? (Like the old proverb says: "You can't fight city hall." The same probably holds true of the FCC.)

 

[Hit_Factor]

...what's to stop some FCC monitor...

The Court, if it comes to that, so very unlikely.

 

[jhooten]

Let's say I came across a Police Officer unconscious in his cruiser. I used the Officer's radio to call for help. I'm not licensed to do so. But no one will care.

No you are not licensed, neither is the officer. You are, however, using a radio that has been authorized to be on the system by the licensee not a non part 90 approved radio that has been modified to operated outside of is normal range.

 

[WB9YBM]

No you are not licensed, neither is the officer. You are, however, using a radio that has been authorized to be on the system by the licensee not a non part 90 approved radio that has been modified to operated outside of is normal range.

I think there might be two separate issues here:

• operating during an emergency, and;
• modifying a radio to operate where it's not supposed to...

unless I'm missing something?

 

[mmckenna]

Awww crap, not this conversation again….

—— Not directed at anyone in particular (yet) ——

Part 97 rules ONLY apply to Part 97, Part 97 Frequencies and Part 97 licenses. Once you take your radio outside the Part 97 frequencies, you are no longer operating under Part 97 rules. You would be operating under which ever rules apply to that frequency. The oft misinterpreted rules in Part 97 that some hams like to think grant them authority to operate on any/all frequencies from DC to daylight if they perceive some sort of emergency is a wet dream of whacker ham operators that need to have their licenses pulled until they fully comprehend Part 97 rules. When you are in the Part 97 house, the part 97 rules apply. The minute you walk into a neighbors house, it doesn't matter what the rules are in your own home, you now have to abide by the rules in the neighbors house. If you think otherwise, the owner of that house can show you the door.

There is nothing, not one damn thing, in Part 97 that grants any authority, permission or waiver to operate on any frequencies other than those listed under Part 97. Put your Baofeng back in your "go bag" and stop trying to pretend you are a public safety professional. You are not. You are some random dude that passed a multiple choice test.

If you transmit with your ham radio on Part 90 frequencies, you would be operating without a license and with a non-type accepted radio on Part 90 frequencies. Amateur radio licenses grant precisely ZERO permissions to do anything outside Part 97 frequencies.
Same applies to Part 95. Part 95 is NOT an extension of your ham license. It is NOT 'extra 70 cm channels'.

In an LIFE OR DEATH emergency, I'd expect any sane human being to to what was needed to save a life. Deal with the consequences later. Human life comes first.
But quit the crap about programming public safety frequencies into your ham radios "just in case".

A few years ago I was talking with our 911 center manager. I brought up this scenario with her. I specifically asked her how they would respond if some random ham operator suddenly showed up on one of our channels. Her reply:
- Hoax. Anyone that wasn't one of their know officer running a radio with no MDC ID would be treated as a hoax. They are trained to ignore harmful interference and keep their own operations going.
- Annoyance. If after a certain amount of time it kept up, an officer would be dispatched. Said ham would get scolded and have a lot of explaining to do. If there was a true life or death emergency, that would be addressed separately.
- I'd get called to figure out the mess and why someone who wasn't supposed to be on our frequencies/system was transmitting on it.
- We'd call the FCC and file a complaint against said individual.
- Encryption would be discussed.

Hams usually have zero training on any sort of first responder medical training. Assuming something is a life or death emergency puts others at risk.

Dispatchers have to triage calls and assign resources where they are necessary. Some ham popping up and subverting that system assuming that their situation takes priority over every other call they are dealing with puts other lives at risk.

Many dispatcher centers have a couple of positions running. One might be taking phone calls from the public, the other dispatcher may be handling the radio. Jumping in line usually slows things down and interrupts other legitimate emergencies. Assuming your emergency takes priority over all others shows what an ass someone is.

Dispatchers have triage steps they take. Calling in using the correct methods (9-1-1) allows that system to work the way it was designed. The system is not designed for Mr. Hammy with his/her Baofeng or modded MARS/CAP radio to get in the middle of their operations. An amateur license is not in any way equal to that of a trained dispatcher or public safety professional. The system is designed to take into account available resources and get those out in the right order. It's designed to do the most amount of good with what is available. The system is not designed to prioritize amateur radio operators above all other citizens.


Yeah, a couple of different things here. Modded amateur radio gear and assumptions that permissions are granted where they are not. Hams love to confuse that section of Part 97 rules, unfortunately it leads to the same issues that brings us amateur radio badges, orange vests, hard hats, stickers all over the cars, and lots of strobe lights.

 

[W8UU]

There is nothing, not one damn thing, in Part 97 that grants any authority, permission or waiver to operate on any frequencies other than those listed under Part 97. Put your Baofeng back in your "go bag" and stop trying to pretend you are a public safety professional. You are not. You are some random dude that passed a multiple choice test.

<snip>

In an LIFE OR DEATH emergency, I'd expect any sane human being to to what was needed to save a life. Deal with the consequences later. Human life comes first. But quit the crap about programming public safety frequencies into your ham radios "just in case".

Yes. This. A million high-fives.

 

[phillydjdan]

So, someone can't setup a cross band repeater from a GMRS frequency to a ham radio frequency? That's weird, some people near me did exactly that yesterday...

 

[mmckenna]

Some time ago this question was debated on this forum about 'emergency communication' restrictions and who can operate where in time of emergency. The question was sent to the FCC. I'm sure that this is applicable to other forms of regulated communications..

This needs to be made a sticky.

And it needs to be printed out and included with every Baofeng and MARS/CAP mod.

And someone needs to take out a full page ad in QST.

 

[Hit_Factor]

...not licensed, neither is the officer....

I'm not sure this is correct. I believe the agency is licensed and thereby the Officers are as well. It could be complicated to track down, especially on a Statewide or larger system. Having used public safety radio for most of my adult life, that's my understanding. There are a few members of this forum who live this stuff in the real world, they could probably expand on this.

Clearly in my scenario, I'm not licensed, and that's the only issue. Equipment is moot in this scenario. My point being, there are always exceptions when acting during an emergency.

Moving onto the next quote, I agree with mmkenna. For the most part, it's just not possible to get onto a public safety system. I'm well aware that there are a few analog systems still in use, I believe those are in the minority. I'll add, I have no stats to support my claim, it's just an observation.

... But quit the crap about programming public safety frequencies into your ham radios "just in case"...

Absolutely

 

[mmckenna]

I'm not sure this is correct. I believe the agency is licensed and thereby the Officers are as well. It could be complicated to track down, especially on a Statewide or larger system. Having used public safety radio for most of my adult life, that's my understanding. There are a few members of this forum who live this stuff in the real world, they could probably expand on this.

90.403 and 90.421

eCFR :: 47 CFR Part 90 Subpart N -- Operating Requirements

www.ecfr.gov

also, along the lines of the way this discussion as derailed:

§90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.

^^^^ this one is where people brining their own private radios onto the system screw up. If you bring your own private radio to work to use on an employers system, it falls under two categories:
1. You are not authorized by the licensee, in which case you are operating without their authority and not licensed.
2. You ARE authorized by the licensee, in which case they are responsible for making sure your radio meets Part 90 rules (no CCR's in most cases) and that your radio is operating correctly. That usually rules out programming in any frequencies that are not authorized under their license. Per part B of 90.427:
(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.


As for the stuff hams think they have, part 90 actually has it spelled out:
§90.417 Interstation communication.
(a) Any station licensed under this part may communicate with any other station without restriction as to type, service, or licensee when the communications involved relate directly to the imminent safety-of-life or property.

Proof that if the FCC wanted amateur radio operators to have that permission, they would have added that exact same verbage to Part 97, but they clearly chose NOT to.

 

[alcahuete]

So, someone can't setup a cross band repeater from a GMRS frequency to a ham radio frequency? That's weird, some people near me did exactly that yesterday...

Correct. Not allowed.

 

[KevinC]

I think this has been covered at least a few dozen times before. Closing.