Question about Trunking/Failsoft/Conventional

[brownbear14]

I have a trunking system set up that is prone to jamming. From what I understand, my handheld radios can be programmed to go into conventional mode during this, via Failsoft. However I am having a hard time getting that to work. The radios do go into failsoft, but they cant be used at that point. I have gone into the programming via ASTRO 25 and set the failsoft tx/rx frequencies to one of our conventional channels, but it doesnt seem to do the trick. The trunking system here is set up with multiple personalities, so I could be missing a setting somewhere. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[fineshot1]

You can not select any conventional repeater or any simplex conventional
frequency and set that up. The conventional frequencies selected must be
that of the trunking repeaters, that is how failsoft works. When the trunking
system controllers(both of them) go into failure the trunking repeaters become
the conventional frequencies. During a failsoft event each talk group is assigned
a trunking repeater pair and that becomes a conventional repeater until the
problem with the controllers clears and the trunk system resumes normal
operations, but without the system administrators list of what talk group
gets assigned that what pair of frequencies you are SOL with getting that
setup correctly.

 

[brownbear14]

I forgot to mention-- we also have a standalone conventional network available for use, with known frequency assignments. Basically I'd like the LMR to switch from trunking to an assigned conventional frequency on the standalone network when in Failsoft. Does that change anything?

 

[davidgcet]

agreed with the above, you have them setup incorrectly.

i'm curious as to what you mean by the system is prone to jamming? the only reason a system should go to failsoft during interference is if most or all of the repeaters are RX'ing interference at the same time. this would lock all resources out and cause a FS condition. maybe you should get the real radio techs to find out why your system is failing.

 

[SCPD]

Radio in back pocket

When I read the OP, I took jamming as meaning someone is sitting on a mike, either intentional or accidental.

 

[davidgcet]

that won't cause a FS condition though,because as far as the system knows it is valid traffic. unless they key and hold enough radios to cover every repeater everything would continue as normal. and if they did lock up every repeater it would only result in busies.

the repeaters in a Moto system will self lock out if they are hearing interference continuously for a length of time, once enough of them lock out the system can go to FS since it out of resources. single site systems would have to lose all voice channels or have all CC hearing interference, while simulcast trunk systems would only have to lose more than 50% of the channels to enter FS.

more than likely there is an issue with the controller or if this is tied to consoles/another site that link could be failing if the site prom is programmed to goto FS on loss of link. i'd be looking in the SMT to see what diagnostic error codes are reporting when it fails.

 

[fineshot1]

I forgot to mention-- we also have a standalone conventional network available for use, with known frequency assignments. Basically I'd like the LMR to switch from trunking to an assigned conventional frequency on the standalone network when in Failsoft. Does that change anything?

That changes nothing.

If the trunk system goes into failsoft then you switch your radio manually
to a what ever other conventional channel programmed in your radio you
need to go to. Not sure why you need to have the radio do it for you but
that functionality does not exist other than the standard failsoft protocol.

 

[brownbear14]

Thanks fineshot. We have issues with users not knowing to switch their zone from trunking to conventional when in failsoft, so I wanted to see if it could be automatic to reduce some user error.

 

[davidgcet]

again, WHY NOT FIX THE REAL PROBLEM? FS should not be a common enough issue to be of concern. the simple solution is that when it goes in FS either use it or put out the announcement for all unit to switch to Chan XYZ.

 

[K6CDO]

Thanks fineshot. We have issues with users not knowing to switch their zone from trunking to conventional when in failsoft, so I wanted to see if it could be automatic to reduce some user error.

IF the trunked system and the subscriber radios are configured properly, there is no need to switch when the system is in FailSoft. ALL of your group's users will end up on the same channel (which is a pair in the trunked system operating in the conventional mode). That is the beauty of FailSoft.

Don

 

[fineshot1]

IF the trunked system and the subscriber radios are configured properly, there is no need to switch when the system is in FailSoft. ALL of your group's users will end up on the same channel (which is a pair in the trunked system operating in the conventional mode). That is the beauty of FailSoft.

Don

The only problem with that is the fact that in a busy trunk system when failsoft occurs
and "many" user groups are often put on the same channel and this along with the
constant beeping from the system throws them into confusion. That alone is a good
reason to have a conventional channel to switch to if possible. Usually only the more
critical users such as law enforcement and ems/fire get those resources. The other
depts such as road, sanitation, etc have to make due with the temporary conventional
channel and confusion until the trunk system operations are restored.

 

[WayneH]

...so I wanted to see if it could be automatic to reduce some user error.

I'm going to sum it up for you, no, it cannot be automatic.

 

[kb0uxv]

Failsoft on simulcast

Quick question for you guys in the know, can failsoft be used on a simulcast system (Astro 7.9, with 9 sites)? I would think that in failsoft and no controllers the 9 site system would not vote RX, so the audio would sound horrible due to timing issues and hitting multiple sites. Unless one can set up failsoft only at selected sites in UCM? I have spoken about this with engineers who told me its not worth my time setting this up. I never have seen a failsoft scenario yet, just site trunking which is very rare and short term (usually due to microwave maintenance).

When in failsoft does the radio beep often like in site trunking? Beeping drives the troops crazy.

Current plan is to stay away from failsoft and install a central 8TAC repeater for backup.

 

[davidgcet]

i dunno about a 9 site ASTRO i've not heard of a multi site ASTRO simulcast, but i know with 2 site analog FS works just fine. with ASTRO it should go to site trunking then finally to site FS i would think.

 

[dmills1]

In any Motorola trunking simulcast cell, the complete cell (all sites that are operational) operate if necessary in Failsoft mode. In an ASTRO 7.9 simulcast cell, if the Prime Site controllers lose communication links to the Zone controllers they will go into a site trunking mode. If the Prime site controllers fail, the cell will switch to failsoft mode. The sites are still simulcast and receiver voted while in the failsoft mode.

In an analog system whether Smartzone or Smartnet, the same is true. Failsoft is simulcast and receiver voted.

 

[grem467]

Keep in your head that in simulcast you have one "site" comprising of many "subsites"

As long as the subsites have connectivity back to the comparators/prime site, they will simulcast as one site regardless of failsoft or wide area trunking.