Question about unlicensed usage scenarios

[hotpocket]

So, I've got an interesting question. Obviously people are going to have differing opinions, and I know a lot of people will probably be put off, but here goes.

In Canada, Is someone allowed, in an emergency ONLY, to transmit on amateur frequencies, including a repeater in order to get help?

Here's an example. I'm on a road trip, and I lose control and crash. One of my passengers is seriously injured. In the area of the crash, cell reception is non-existent. In that situation would it be allowed to transmit on a repeater to request an autopatch with 911

 

[mmckenna]

I think that's a good question.
Since the governing body in Canada isn't where my experience is, you'd probably need to get input directly from them.

On the surface, the answer is usually "No", as in you must be licensed to transmit.
I know in the USA, there's usually some loose wording that will say that in an emergency, anything goes.

In real life, you do what you need to do in preservation of human life, and deal with the fallout later. That really isn't a radio question, and trying to use government rules to justify it often results in a screaming match between those with differing opinions.

My experience with hams here in the USA (and I am a ham also…) is that hams consider their spectrum to be untouchable by anyone who hasn't been licensed, and will usually get really cranky about any suggestion that a non-ham use their radio service. They'll usually claim that the government has roaming black helicopters waiting to swoop in with SWAT teams to capture you and throw you in jail for the rest of your natural born life if you even think about pushing the PTT button. (Hint: There isn't!)

Yet, the same hams will claim that they have a right, no, DUTY, to transmit on public safety frequencies they are not licensed for.



Question would be, why would you/your passenger, as non-hams, have ham radio equipment in the vehicle programmed up and ready to transmit? That suggests that it's a planned thing. Proper planning would be to either get your license, or get a satellite beacon if you expect to be in those situations.

In a life threatening emergency where someone's life is on the line, you save their life first, then worry about the ham radio operators. But I can tell you from personal experience, DO NOT rely on a ham radio to get you help in an emergency. Three times I've tried it, three times I failed to get a person that was willing to help. Made contact with someone, but they were not interested in helping. And even more unlikely, now, that you'd even be able to raise someone. Never a good idea to rely on a hobby radio service for life safety.

 

[mmckenna]

I should also add:

- Preservation of human life is one thing.
- Using a radio without a license to report that a pot hole needs to be fixed or a street light is out is a different matter.

Knowing when and when not to do this is important. What I teach radio users at work is to consider whether or not they'd dial 911 if they had access to a phone. These users are on a trunked system and they have access to a talk group that goes right to our 911 dispatchers. That talk group is specifically and only used for reporting emergencies.
The rule is "if you'd pick up a phone and dial 911, then use that talk group. If it's not worth of 911, then use more appropriate means to get assistance". In other words, don't use emergency means of communications when there is not an emergency. It just needlessly spins up processes that draw resources away from more important things. As a radio user, one wouldn't necessarily know what resources were available or needed somewhere else for a real emergency.

 

[vagrant]

I use a Garmin InReach device with an annual plan. They also have monthly subscriptions. That device uses Iridium satellites that encompass the earth. If I am in a valley, or area where a phone, repeater, or simplex will not reach, the Garmin handles it. Remember, one may not be able to talk, or a person with them may not know how to operate the radio, or know their exact location.

The order I would use the devices are: 911 > Garmin > Hope someone drives by > Amateur radio.

 

[mmckenna]

The order I would use the devices are: 911 > Garmin > Hope someone drives by > Amateur radio.

Yep, same here.

When at work, I have access to VHF, 800MHz and even carry a satellite phone when I'm really out on the fringes. I have my own Garmin InReach Mini.
As a ham, I'd —NEVER— rely on amateur radio in an emergency. I've tried 3 times, and each time my fellow hams failed to help.
I'd certainly give it a try, but I'd not expect it to be successful.

There are correct tools for the job, and there are correct ways to get help when needed. Amateur radio is really far down that list. If it's the only tool you have, then give it a try, but after that, consider adding some more appropriate tools to your toolbox. You can only fix so many things with a hammer.

 

[k6cpo]

So, I've got an interesting question. Obviously people are going to have differing opinions, and I know a lot of people will probably be put off, but here goes.

In Canada, Is someone allowed, in an emergency ONLY, to transmit on amateur frequencies, including a repeater in order to get help?

Here's an example. I'm on a road trip, and I lose control and crash. One of my passengers is seriously injured. In the area of the crash, cell reception is non-existent. In that situation would it be allowed to transmit on a repeater to request an autopatch with 911

Notwithstanding the above replies, it would be virtually impossible to find a repeater with an autopatch these days. With virtually everyone in the world owning a cell phone, the need for phone patches just isn't there any more and most repeater owners have removed them.

 

[ecps92]

So many scenarios/questions.

As already said, good luck finding a phone-patch today

Is the Radio in a car, that the radio was already programmed by a licensed Amateur ?
if so, I don't see any amateur complaining this would be like any civilian picking up the microphone in a police cruiser to call for help.

if this is a scenario where you are not an amateur, and have the radio programmed for this O $h!t moment, then No Way in Hell [IMHO]
you planned to use a radio [premeditated] for something not authorized, but in the hope you would not need it but planned to use it.

So, I've got an interesting question. Obviously people are going to have differing opinions, and I know a lot of people will probably be put off, but here goes.

In Canada, Is someone allowed, in an emergency ONLY, to transmit on amateur frequencies, including a repeater in order to get help?

Here's an example. I'm on a road trip, and I lose control and crash. One of my passengers is seriously injured. In the area of the crash, cell reception is non-existent. In that situation would it be allowed to transmit on a repeater to request an autopatch with 911

 

[jwt873]

There are no allowances for transmitting on amateur frequencies without a license in Canada. All the dope on the subject is here -> RIC-3 — Information on the Amateur Radio Service - Spectrum management and telecommunications (See section 4.1, Certification)

You would be open to being charged... But obviously in the case of an extreme emergency, extenuating circumstances would prevail and the transgression would most likely be forgiven.

 

[hotpocket]

I appreciate the replies guys. I would never actually do this as I know the potential consequences would be great, but its just a question I’ve always had, similar to how if an emergency vehicle is behind you with its lights and sirens going, and there is no way for them to get around you, is it ok to go through a red light to give them room. Its just one of those curiosity things

 

[mmckenna]

I appreciate the replies guys. I would never actually do this as I know the potential consequences would be great, but its just a question I’ve always had, similar to how if an emergency vehicle is behind you with its lights and sirens going, and there is no way for them to get around you, is it ok to go through a red light to give them room. Its just one of those curiosity things

It's a good question and should be asked. Surprised it doesn't come up more often than it does.

 

[HavenBTS]

So, I've got an interesting question. Obviously people are going to have differing opinions, and I know a lot of people will probably be put off, but here goes.

In Canada, Is someone allowed, in an emergency ONLY, to transmit on amateur frequencies, including a repeater in order to get help?

Here's an example. I'm on a road trip, and I lose control and crash. One of my passengers is seriously injured. In the area of the crash, cell reception is non-existent. In that situation would it be allowed to transmit on a repeater to request an autopatch with 911

No. You just let the person die.

Of course you use whatever is available to save a human life. Holy sh** the replies are unbelievable and infuriating.
WHAT IS LEGAL AND WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO.

Someone you LOVE is bleeding to death and all you have is a ham radio and you are unlicensed. Yeah, take the time to contemplate the legalities of that. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL MY SUBSCRIPTION RUNS OUT. YOU PEOPLE ARE PLAIN STUPID AND EVEN MORE ARROGANT.

Now, I KNOW that there are literally HUNDREDS of people that agree with me. Speak up. Don't be afraid of Lindsay C. Blanton III and his staff of fools! You will all survive without an RR account if the GODS of RR delete your account. My God mmckenna, THREE LONG WINDED replies to a question whose answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HavenBTS]

No. You just let the person die.

Of course you use whatever is available to save a human life. Holy sh** the replies are unbelievable and infuriating.
WHAT IS LEGAL AND WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO.

Someone you LOVE is bleeding to death and all you have is a ham radio and you are unlicensed. Yeah, take the time to contemplate the legalities of that. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL MY SUBSCRIPTION RUNS OUT. YOU PEOPLE ARE PLAIN STUPID AND EVEN MORE ARROGANT.

Now, I KNOW that there are literally HUNDREDS of people that agree with me. Speak up. Don't be afraid of Lindsay C. Blanton III and his staff of fools! You will all survive without an RR account if the GODS of RR delete your account. My God mmckenna, THREE LONG WINDED replies to a question whose answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine if someone really listened to you idiots and a human life was lost. PONDER THAT! Before any of you say to leave if I don't like it here, I would but you arrogant people don't refund subscriptions. SO until my annual subscription expires I will continue to laugh at all of you!

 

[GlobalNorth]

Passive aggressive much?

 

[HavenBTS]

Passive aggressive much?

PISSED OFF AS ALWAYS HERE! You all know I am right and I don't care what any of you think or what you reply. The level of arrogance here is mind boggling. You all don't just have Moderators, you have to have Super Moderators. What next? A Super Duper Moderator?

 

[HavenBTS]

Passive aggressive much?

Also, what you perceive as aggression is actually anger.

 

[vagrant]

I sense a Super Secret Super Duper Moderator is nearby…

So, this guy walks into a bar and asks how a particular drink is made. He gets various feedback and does whatever he will do. Another guy, who’s been at this bar for sometime now, does not like it when a bartender cuts him off and begins to sass the bartenders and management. It is unfortunate to see a person behaving like that, but he is welcome to comeback tomorrow, as he has paid his tab.

 

[HavenBTS]

I sense a Super Secret Super Duper Moderator is nearby…

So, this guy walks into a bar and asks how a particular drink is made. He gets various feedback and does whatever he will do. Another guy, who’s been at this bar for sometime now, does not like it when a bartender cuts him off and begins to sass the bartenders and management. It is unfortunate to see a person behaving like that, but he is welcome to comeback tomorrow, as he has paid his tab.

What if paying his tab wasn't worth the money?

 

[mmckenna]

Hmmm, Double Secret Probation?

 

[mmckenna]

What if paying his tab wasn't worth the money?

There's a lot of threads on this site where I feel the same way you do, but sometimes walking away and not engaging is the best approach.

The OP asked a good question that deserved a good answer.
Sure, anyone can answer with a yes or no, but there's some usefulness to explaining the reason behind the answer.

And there is a function where you can specifically block my posts. Feel free to do that if you want. I won't be offended.

 

[HavenBTS]

There's a lot of threads on this site where I feel the same way you do, but sometimes walking away and not engaging is the best approach.

The OP asked a good question that deserved a good answer.
Sure, anyone can answer with a yes or no, but there's some usefulness to explaining the reason behind the answer.

And there is a function where you can specifically block my posts. Feel free to do that if you want. I won't be offended.

It was a STUPID question with DANGEROUS answers and you know it.