Questions about DMR

[alcahuete]

Hot spots are annoying. At that point, just use droid star or a phone app. I haven't heard one yet that isn't dropping packets. they usually make people sound like crap. especially on DMR where you are already at a disadvantage of using AMBE+ at half rate. no wonder the repeaters are dead.

If we're being honest, anything except HF on the ham bands is annoying.

Why not use droid star or a phone app? For one, audio on the phone sounds absolutely horrendous. Second, you lose all the nice features of your radio, like audio leveling. I don't know how people do linked hammy DMR without audio leveling.

The repeaters are dead for good reason. You get the 80+ year old hams talking about their bunions and hemorrhoids all day on the local machines, the self-appointed radio police, etc. People got tired of it. Haven't heard that once when using a hotspot. The CQs get old, as do the steady stream of radio checks, but that's one of the reasons I mainly stick to HF. Just better operators all around down there.

 

[kayn1n32008]

If we're being honest, anything except HF on the ham bands is annoying.

Riiiiight.

For one, audio on the phone sounds absolutely horrendous.

Yep, It's one reason I really don't like transcoding and linking all the digital modes together. We really do not need to link all the modes together. Things like Droidstar and that speaker mike looking thing that doesn't actually use ham band RF sound like garbage.

Second, you lose all the nice features of your radio, like audio leveling. I don't know how people do linked hammy DMR without audio leveling.

RX audio leveling is a god send on the XPR7xxx and 5xxx subscribers. It almost makes the garbage CCR's listenable.

The repeaters are dead for good reason. You get the 80+ year old hams talking about their bunions and hemorrhoids all day on the local machines, the self-appointed radio police, etc. People got tired of it. Haven't heard that once when using a hotspot. The CQs get old, as do the steady stream of radio checks, but that's one of the reasons I mainly stick to HF. Just better operators all around down there.

Yep, I'm just glad P25 still has a bit of a barrier to entry. Now if we could just stop linking Fusion, DMR and DStar to it, that would be nice. oh well, locally we don't use TG-1 for local only comms on out P25 machine.

 

[K9KLC]

Yep, It's one reason I really don't like transcoding and linking all the digital modes together. We really do not need to link all the modes together

The linking all the modes together to be happening more and more. It's gotten to the point I only do simplex "digital anything" and do occasional DMR on the local only talk group. I think there might be a p-25 repeater but it's analog and p-25 both and last time two of us tried to use it it locked it up on p-25 only which was fine by me but the repeater trustee got a little miffed and owe just quit using it.

 

[nd5y]

So...when I look up a talkgroup, the databases all have a talkgroup number but not a timeslot or color code. How do I get that information? I'm trying to get Droidstar working.

DMR time slots and color codes aren't tied to the talkgroup ID. They depend on how individual repeaters and hotspots are set up. You have to look up your local repeaters to find what they use.

 

[OkieBoyKJ5JFG]

DMR time slots and color codes aren't tied to the talkgroup ID. They depend on how individual repeaters and hotspots are set up. You have to look up your local repeaters to find what they use.

Ah, okay.

 

[k6cpo]

I do like the audio on Yaesu System Fusion (YZF)

Also the Yaesu repeaters to make it all work always have some issue and Motorola repeaters on DMR are mainly work without issues. Our club's fusion repeater just to be reset with transmitting a crazy tone everytime someone tried to access it.

My club has had no issues with the three Fusion repeaters we have on the air. If your club's repeater isn't working properly, then it's not set up correctly or, and this is the only caveat on the Fusion repeaters, it's being run at full power. I don't about the current repeater, but the earliest ones had overheating issues. We've run ours on half power (25W) for over 10 years and they've been fine.

I mean, it is a commercial format that has been adopted to amateur radio use. Welcome to the world of LMR radio. I will say, Tier 2 DMR is definitely much more time consuming to set up than say Capacity Plus trunking due to having static assigned time slots and talkgroups.

It's a good mode for commercial use. My wife's employer uses a trunked MotoTurbo system at two different locations and I've never heard he comment about any system issues and she's on it every day.

 

[EuropeanUser]

DMR programming is a lot different than analog, but there are a few similarities.

All radios have a radio ID. It needs to be programmed. For ham you have to get yours at radioid.net. In a commercial system these IDs are arbitrary and assigned by whoever planned the system, but for amateur radio use the radioid.net database is the way to go.

Frequency is the same as in analog. One for transmit, one for receive on repeaters and duplex hotspots, same for both on simplex and simplex hotspots.

Color Codes are the equivalent of subtones in an analog system.

Then there’s the time slots that have no equivalent in analog. There are two time slots per frequency and both can be in use simultaneously. The way they work is that the channel is divided into two transmit windows (slots) and each one take turns transmitting and receiving. They switch often enough that it won’t interrupt the conversation.

When programming a channel the time slot and a talkgroup have to be set. Different repeaters use different assignments for time slots. MMDVM hotspots will only use time slot 2. DMR simplex generally uses only one time slot (two can be done but a radio has to be assigned the role of timing leader, and it’s a whole thing)

Multiple talk groups can be available on the same time slot but only one can be in active use at any given time.

You’d have to look at the information about each repeater to see what talk groups are available on what time slot. Some allow you to activate any talk group and some will only allow the ones assigned by the repeater administrator.

There are multiple DMR networks for ham radio. Brandmeister being the largest. Others include DMR-MARC, TGIF Network and some more.

They will have a different set of talkgroups available.

Some popular ones on Brandmeister are:
91 World Wide. There’s almost always traffic on this one. Don’t do radio checks here.
98 is for radio tests
3100 is USA

I'd disagree with that. As far as digital goes in the ham radio world, I'd put P25 first, followed by YSF, then NXDN then DMR.

I’m going to disagree with your disagreement and say TETRA first (it’s used by some hams in Europe), YSF in voice wide mode, P25 Phase 1, regular YSF, NXDN, DMR, D-Star.

DMR depends a lot on the radio. For example Kenwood radios tend to sound better than Motorola on DMR but the old EVX radios like the EVX-S24 sound better than MotoTRBO radios in my opinion. I have compared the R7 to the EVX-S24.

 

[OkieBoyKJ5JFG]

DMR programming is a lot different than analog, but there are a few similarities.

All radios have a radio ID. It needs to be programmed. For ham you have to get yours at radioid.net. In a commercial system these IDs are arbitrary and assigned by whoever planned the system, but for amateur radio use the radioid.net database is the way to go.

Frequency is the same as in analog. One for transmit, one for receive on repeaters and duplex hotspots, same for both on simplex and simplex hotspots.

Color Codes are the equivalent of subtones in an analog system.

Then there’s the time slots that have no equivalent in analog. There are two time slots per frequency and both can be in use simultaneously. The way they work is that the channel is divided into two transmit windows (slots) and each one take turns transmitting and receiving. They switch often enough that it won’t interrupt the conversation.

When programming a channel the time slot and a talkgroup have to be set. Different repeaters use different assignments for time slots. MMDVM hotspots will only use time slot 2. DMR simplex generally uses only one time slot (two can be done but a radio has to be assigned the role of timing leader, and it’s a whole thing)

Multiple talk groups can be available on the same time slot but only one can be in active use at any given time.

You’d have to look at the information about each repeater to see what talk groups are available on what time slot. Some allow you to activate any talk group and some will only allow the ones assigned by the repeater administrator.

There are multiple DMR networks for ham radio. Brandmeister being the largest. Others include DMR-MARC, TGIF Network and some more.

They will have a different set of talkgroups available.

Some popular ones on Brandmeister are:
91 World Wide. There’s almost always traffic on this one. Don’t do radio checks here.
98 is for radio tests
3100 is USA

Good info! Thank you!

 

[kayn1n32008]

DMR programming is a lot different than analog, but there are a few similarities.

All radios have a radio ID. It needs to be programmed. For ham you have to get yours at radioid.net. In a commercial system these IDs are arbitrary and assigned by whoever planned the system, but for amateur radio use the radioid.net database is the way to go.

Frequency is the same as in analog. One for transmit, one for receive on repeaters and duplex hotspots, same for both on simplex and simplex hotspots.

Color Codes are the equivalent of subtones in an analog system.

Then there’s the time slots that have no equivalent in analog. There are two time slots per frequency and both can be in use simultaneously. The way they work is that the channel is divided into two transmit windows (slots) and each one take turns transmitting and receiving. They switch often enough that it won’t interrupt the conversation.

When programming a channel the time slot and a talkgroup have to be set. Different repeaters use different assignments for time slots. MMDVM hotspots will only use time slot 2. DMR simplex generally uses only one time slot (two can be done but a radio has to be assigned the role of timing leader, and it’s a whole thing)

Multiple talk groups can be available on the same time slot but only one can be in active use at any given time.

You’d have to look at the information about each repeater to see what talk groups are available on what time slot. Some allow you to activate any talk group and some will only allow the ones assigned by the repeater administrator.

There are multiple DMR networks for ham radio. Brandmeister being the largest. Others include DMR-MARC, TGIF Network and some more.

They will have a different set of talkgroups available.

Some popular ones on Brandmeister are:
91 World Wide. There’s almost always traffic on this one. Don’t do radio checks here.
98 is for radio tests
3100 is USA

This is a really concise, and well written. Probably one of the best write up for high level programming of a DMR radio.

I’m going to disagree with your disagreement and say TETRA first (it’s used by some hams in Europe), YSF in voice wide mode, P25 Phase 1, regular YSF, NXDN, DMR, D-Star.

Unfortunately, being in Canada, there isn't any TETRA being used on the ham bands that I am aware of. Hence my feeling that P25 phase 1 being the most pleasant I've listened to or used. I did use a properly designed analogue type 2 trunk system at one employer's facility, and it was quite good. Mind you, there was no picket fencing, static, beeps(besides my TPT) or squelch crashes.

DMR depends a lot on the radio. For example Kenwood radios tend to sound better than Motorola on DMR but the old EVX radios like the EVX-S24 sound better than MotoTRBO radios in my opinion. I have compared the R7 to the EVX-S24.

Fully agree. I do like the receive audio leveling on the gen 2 Motorola DMR gear. It's about the only thing that makes it bearable to listen to the hammy DMR networks.

 

[ad8g]

It depends. if you are using a ASTRO25(XTS/XTL) they use IMBE, if you are using APX, TK/VM/VP/Harris equipment its AMBE+. AMBE is backwards compatible with IMBE.

I'm going to be pedantic here (it's what I do best) and clarify this: P25 Phase I is always IMBE no matter what subscriber you're using. Phase II is AMBE+2. I don't think you were suggesting otherwise, just making it clear for those that may not know.

And personally, I think older subs sound better on Phase I than newer ones. Might just be because I'm used to them.

 

[ad8g]

Fully agree. I do like the receive audio leveling on the gen 2 Motorola DMR gear. It's about the only thing that makes it bearable to listen to the hammy DMR networks.

As much as I like some of the cheap Chinese DMR radios for the features they offer... they really don't sound very good. IMO, DMR already doesn't sound great (at least by comparison to Phase I P25), and hams manage to make it worse

 

[EuropeanUser]

Fully agree. I do like the receive audio leveling on the gen 2 Motorola DMR gear. It's about the only thing that makes it bearable to listen to the hammy DMR networks.

Agreed about the audio leveling. Talkgroup 91 is almost unbearable without receive audio leveling especially during the net. Some are quiet like a whisper from another room and some are loud like a passing train. The unfortunate part about Motorola and most commercial DMR radios is that talkgroups have to be pre-programmed and can’t be input on the radio itself.

lots of users also seem to skip the part of calibrating their hotspots, so their bit error rate is though the roof and audio is terrible.

Another note is that for new users looking to learn good radio discipline talkgroup 91 on BM is absolutely not the place to be. Maybe not even most of Brandmeister. The amount of times I’ve heard profanities being directed at users there…

As much as I like some of the cheap Chinese DMR radios for the features they offer... they really don't sound very good. IMO, DMR already doesn't sound great (at least by comparison to Phase I P25), and hams manage to make it worse

Oh yes. Most of them aren’t very good. They only have three benefits over commercial DMR radios. Price, availability and the ability to program and input talkgroups directly on the radio.

DMR is probably not the best suited digital mode for amateur use but it has become the most popular one thanks to the availability of cheap Chinese radios.

 

[alcahuete]

DMR is probably not the best suited digital mode for amateur use but it has become the most popular one thanks to the availability of cheap Chinese radios.

I actually think it is in fact the best suited digital mode, especially with all the linking. You can have all the linked garbage on one timeslot, and still have the other timeslot available for local/normal/standard repeater use for the local users. You don't really have that in any other digital format.

 

[K9KLC]

I actually think it is in fact the best suited digital mode, especially with all the linking. You can have all the linked garbage on one timeslot, and still have the other timeslot available for local/normal/standard repeater use for the local users. You don't really have that in any other digital format.

Doesn't work half bad on a simplex frequency either, not that a lot of people ever do DMR simplex but some of us around here do.

 

[marcotor]

As much as I like some of the cheap Chinese DMR radios for the features they offer... they really don't sound very good. IMO, DMR already doesn't sound great (at least by comparison to Phase I P25), and hams manage to make it worse

"W4XXX CAN YOU HEAR ME??? HELLO??? RAAAADDDDIIIIIOOOOO CHECK!" (loooong exhale thru nose blowing across mic)

You would think hams would know better then to stuff the microphone directly in front of their face and then YELL into it after "fixing" the audio input level to +15. Listening to others breathing sounds while talking also drives me crazy.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The unfortunate part about Motorola and most commercial DMR radios is that talkgroups have to be pre-programmed and can’t be input on the radio itself.

I've never had an issue with not being able to FPP on DMR.

I usually pack an XTS portable these days and I've nerver missed having a VFO/FPP on the radios I own. Even thought I could easily add FPP to my VHF and UHF XTS portables, I don't.

lots of users also seem to skip the part of calibrating their hotspots, so their bit error rate is though the roof and audio is terrible.

Yep. DMR is not a mode to 'eye ball' or do the old 'whistle test'. It requires proper test gear to set up.

Another note is that for new users looking to learn good radio discipline talkgroup 91 on BM is absolutely not the place to be. Maybe not even most of Brandmeister. The amount of times I’ve heard profanities being directed at users there...

It's why I like local only use. The linked stuff is... interesting... at least on DMR. P25 is not as bad, usually. I can tolerate 10200 and 10100 most days.

 

[EuropeanUser]

I actually think it is in fact the best suited digital mode, especially with all the linking. You can have all the linked garbage on one timeslot, and still have the other timeslot available for local/normal/standard repeater use for the local users. You don't really have that in any other digital format.

Then TETRA is even better. 4 timeslots.

The linking can be done on any mode digital or analog. Time slots can’t be done on any of the amateur digital modes that I know of.

My issue with using commercial systems for amateur radio is that the radios aren’t made for it. My Motorolas don’t accept talkgroup entry. All talkgroups have to be programmed in advance. The front panel programming doesn’t allow do change almost anything. Looking at potentially getting Kenwood NX-5300. It seems to be a bit more flexible.

Both D-Star and YSF makes it easy to pick a frequency and set up for simplex communication. DMR most often requires using the programming software on a computer except with some of the Chinese radios.

 

[alcahuete]

Then TETRA is even better. 4 timeslots.

The linking can be done on any mode digital or analog. Time slots can’t be done on any of the amateur digital modes that I know of.

My issue with using commercial systems for amateur radio is that the radios aren’t made for it. My Motorolas don’t accept talkgroup entry. All talkgroups have to be programmed in advance. The front panel programming doesn’t allow do change almost anything. Looking at potentially getting Kenwood NX-5300. It seems to be a bit more flexible.

Both D-Star and YSF makes it easy to pick a frequency and set up for simplex communication. DMR most often requires using the programming software on a computer except with some of the Chinese radios.

I'm a fan of TETRA. Just not much of it here in the US. Basically none. But the multiple timeslots is absolutely an advantage. Again, you have one tineslot for local, one for linked stuff, etc.

Perhaps you're using the wrong radio? The Anytone 878, for example, is absolutely made for amateur use. It has all sorts of hammy features, you can select the talkgroup, etc.

Motorolas are certainly not meant for amateur use. Not sure how many talkgroups you use, but I have my Motos programmed for the 4 or 5 talkgroups I generally use. It takes an equal number of channels to do that, which is certainly not ideal, but at the end of the day, not the end of the world. I'm in the Los Angeles area and have yet to run any of my radios out of the 1000 memory channels (4000 in some cases).

 

[kayn1n32008]

Then TETRA is even better. 4 timeslots.

What about infrastructure?

Time slots can’t be done on any of the amateur digital modes that I know of.

Nope. The current 3 would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, along with needing to develope new 'subscriber' hardware to support it.

My issue with using commercial systems for amateur radio is that the radios aren’t made for it.

Uh, LMR gear is hands ad fists better performing than hammy gear.

My Motorolas don’t accept talkgroup entry. All talkgroups have to be programmed in advance.

I've been using LMR gear for many years. I've never missed having having VFO. I've also traveled quite a bit as well. My XTS2500's have 870 modes amd I ha entered come close to filling either my VHF or UHF portable, neither have FPP. my XPR5550 mobile has a ton of space in it, amd I don't use FPP on it either. If I need to add something, it's pretty quick and easy. While it's a bit slower with my XPR7550/5550 gear, it's still pretty straight forward, but I've been using a variety of LMR software for a long time.

The front panel programming doesn’t allow do change almost anything. Looking at potentially getting Kenwood NX-5300. It seems to be a bit more flexible.

Better to get a VP5xxx and Armada. Physically the same case as a NX5300, but only P25. If you want NXDN or DMR, A single band VP8000 is a better choice.

Both D-Star and YSF makes it easy to pick a frequency and set up for simplex communication. DMR most often requires using the programming software on a computer except with some of the Chinese radios.

I own an ID-51 and IC-92AD, and I haven't used them in a really long time. I won't waste my money on a Fusion radio, after looking at what is available, both current and discontinued, nope. No thank you. I will happily pull out my computer to add or take away channels on my XTS/XPR/NX gear, with out FPP. While I could add FPP my XTS portables, I don't need it or want it. In fact, I removed it from my UHF-R1 portable.

 

[KJ4DHF]

What about infrastructure?

Nope. The current 3 would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, along with needing to develope new 'subscriber' hardware to support it.

Uh, LMR gear is hands ad fists better performing than hammy gear.

I've been using LMR gear for many years. I've never missed having having VFO. I've also traveled quite a bit as well. My XTS2500's have 870 modes amd I ha entered come close to filling either my VHF or UHF portable, neither have FPP. my XPR5550 mobile has a ton of space in it, amd I don't use FPP on it either. If I need to add something, it's pretty quick and easy. While it's a bit slower with my XPR7550/5550 gear, it's still pretty straight forward, but I've been using a variety of LMR software for a long time.

Better to get a VP5xxx and Armada. Physically the same case as a NX5300, but only P25. If you want NXDN or DMR, A single band VP8000 is a better choice.

I own an ID-51 and IC-92AD, and I haven't used them in a really long time. I won't waste my money on a Fusion radio, after looking at what is available, both current and discontinued, nope. No thank you. I will happily pull out my computer to add or take away channels on my XTS/XPR/NX gear, with out FPP. While I could add FPP my XTS portables, I don't need it or want it. In fact, I removed it from my UHF-R1 portable.

It is hard to find XTS that does not have FPP,FDNY stuffed into it by some got to have it all in the flash. Took me a long time to pick up my XTS that was not whored out.Since the initial programming of my XTS uhf & vhf,XPR mobile and portable,XG-100P some have been with me several years they have only been reconnected to pc 1 time.That was to change my DMR Id that they decided needed to be changed they issued way back when.