R30 Response to questions from ICOM

[rja1]

I recently contacted ICOM with questions about the R30 regarding DMR & no 2.5Khz step. Here's the response I got from ICOM:

Thank you for your email regarding the IC-R30 and the 2.5kHz tuning step. As you know, the R30 does not have a tuning step of 2.5kHz. I would like to understand why the 2.5 kHz tuning step is a deal breaker so I could try to get this added in a future firmware update. As far as DMR, this has been a major topic of discussion and I am still trying to get this as a feature upgrade. As there are licensing fees for DMR, what would you see as a fair cost to add this to the R30?

Best regards,

Ray Novak, N9JA
Senior Sales Manager

Let's let Mr. Novak know we really would like a 2.5 KHz step added and a DMR option. His contact info is

RayNovak@IcomAmerica.com

Lets also tell him we want a TRUNKING option, too! It's nice to see ICOM is listening to it's customer base, so be nice!

Bob
N2OAM

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Some VHF radio equipment including scanners may not properly resolve certain VHF channels, which require the radio to resolve to 2.5 KHz channel steps.

Examples are these national interoperability channels:

VCALL -10 155.7525 MHz,
VTAC - 12 154.4525 MHz and
VTAC - 14 159.4725 MHz

These channels cannot be evenly divided by radio synthesizers, which do not resolve to 2.5 KHz.
Additionally, there are other VHF channels on these "7.5 KHz channel centers" which may be
troublesome. I think there may be many in the wildland fire service used by western states.

It might help to compile a list on this thread to forward to Mr Novak.

 

[Hit_Factor]

I would pay $50-$75 without thinking twice for a DMR upgrade.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[W2GLD]

First off, the proper "channel steps" on VHF-Hi land mobile between 150.8025 MHz and 160.2075 MHz are 7.5 kHz post-narrowbanding and 15.0 kHz pre-narrowbanding. When you talk about 2.5 kHz, you are referring to the bandwidth of the channel NOT the channel steps or spacing (i.e. what you can tune on the rotary dial.) The 2.5 kHz "channel bandwidth" refers to the narrowbanding operation of a specific frequency. This was derived from wideband channels being 5.0 kHz deviation and narrowband is effectively 1/2 the deviation of a former wideband channel. So please understand the differences between the "channel steps" and "channel bandwidth" as they are not one in the same.

With the above said, ICOM does need to add the 7.5 kHz channel step setting for the North America as this is part of the new narrowbanding requirements. The ICOM IC-R8600 has the ability to create a custom channel step setting so that works and they could simply add that option here as well. Additionally, the 7.5 kHz step is also used in the AAR channels as well and will be used with Marine narrowbanding as well, which isn't too far off. So the request to ICOM should really be to add a 7.5 kHz channel step setting or a custom setting (like the R8600) and the add the DMR mode as a feature enhancement.

For future reference, the channel steps vs bandwidths are as follows:

Channel Step Size Channel Bandwidth Size
Wideband FM 25.0 kHz 5.0 kHz Deviation
Wideband FM 20.0 kHz 4.0 kHz Deviation
Wideband FM 15.0 kHz 3.0 kHz Deviation
Narrowband FM 12.5 kHz 2.5 kHz Deviation
Narrowband FM 7.5 kHz 2.0 kHz Deviation
Very-Narrowband FM 6.25 kHz 1.25 kHz Deviation

 

[oschellin]

I recently contacted ICOM with questions about the R30 regarding DMR & no 2.5Khz step...

Thank you for making those important feature requests for the R30, Bob. I would hope that the 2.5 kHz steps would be a fairly easy firmware fix and should be available in the next upgrade. As far as DMR, I'm guessing that is a more advanced feature. As to what I'd be willing to pay for DMR - Uniden charges $60 for their DMR upgrade BUT that includes trunk-tracking DMR (both tracking the channel changes as well as decoding the DMR audio). If Icom is ONLY decoding the DMR audio and not providing trunk tracking, then I would suggest the value would be around $25 or so.

73 de NO3U,
Otto

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

First off, the proper "channel steps" on VHF-Hi land mobile between 150.8025 MHz and 160.2075 MHz are 7.5 kHz post-narrowbanding and 15.0 kHz pre-narrowbanding. When you talk about 2.5 kHz, you are referring to the bandwidth of the channel NOT the channel steps or spacing (i.e. what you can tune on the rotary dial.) The 2.5 kHz "channel bandwidth" refers to the narrowbanding operation of a specific frequency. This was derived from wideband channels being 5.0 kHz deviation and narrowband is effectively 1/2 the deviation of a former wideband channel. So please understand the differences between the "channel steps" and "channel bandwidth" as they are not one in the same.

With the above said, ICOM does need to add the 7.5 kHz channel step setting for the North America as this is part of the new narrowbanding requirements. The ICOM IC-R8600 has the ability to create a custom channel step setting so that works and they could simply add that option here as well. Additionally, the 7.5 kHz step is also used in the AAR channels as well and will be used with Marine narrowbanding as well, which isn't too far off. So the request to ICOM should really be to add a 7.5 kHz channel step setting or a custom setting (like the R8600) and the add the DMR mode as a feature enhancement.

For future reference, the channel steps vs bandwidths are as follows:

Channel Step Size Channel Bandwidth Size
Wideband FM 25.0 kHz 5.0 kHz Deviation
Wideband FM 20.0 kHz 4.0 kHz Deviation
Wideband FM 15.0 kHz 3.0 kHz Deviation
Narrowband FM 12.5 kHz 2.5 kHz Deviation
Narrowband FM 7.5 kHz 2.0 kHz Deviation
Very-Narrowband FM 6.25 kHz 1.25 kHz Deviation

W2GLD;
I am talking about channel centers/tuning steps. Not bandwidth or deviation neither of which were the question.

Here from the Icom ICR-30 specs:
----------------------------------
Tuning steps 0.01, 0.1, 1, 3.125, 5, 6.25, 8.33*, 9*, 10, 12.5, 15, 20, 25, 30, 50, 100, 125, 200 kHz
* May be available, depending on the operating band and mode.
-------------------------------------



Yes 7.5 KHz is the norm for much of the part 90 VHF band.

Please see the above table.
1)I am assuming that the ICR-30 has no capability of tuning 10 Hz steps in the FM mode shown in Gold above. Note the whole integers. If it does with full functionality, the issue is moot. I don't own an ICR-30 so the OP can comment further.

2) The ICR-30 tuning steps of 100 Hz, 3.125 KHz, and 6.125 KHz shown in red will not resolve properly on channels requiring a 7.5 or 2.5 KHz step. Note the fractional integers. The three channels in the example cannot be resolved accurately.

3) The tuning step of 7.5 KHz shown in black will only resolve certain channels with 7.5 KHz steps. Inexplicably ICOM does not show this tuning step in the specifications, though 15 KHz steps (pre narrowband) are available.

4) The ideal tuning step of 2.5 KHz shown in green will resolve channels with 7.5 and 2.5 KHz centers (as well as 15 KHz and their multiples).

 

[rja1]

Looks like I'm getting tuning steps confused with bandwidth. Here's the trunked system I want to monitor:

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=6033

What would the correct tuning step be for this trunked system? Looks to me like 5 KHz would work. Anyone with a R30 monitoring this system?

Thanks,
Bob
N2OAM

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Looks like I'm getting tuning steps confused with bandwidth. Here's the trunked system I want to monitor:

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=6033

What would the correct tuning step be for this trunked system? Looks to me like 5 KHz would work. Anyone with a R30 monitoring this system?

Thanks,
Bob
N2OAM

I tried a couple and 5.0 KHz wont work. Divide the frequency in MHz by 0.005 and if the integer has a fraction, then it wont work. Then try 0.0025 and see that it does work.

 

[dkf435]

Unless Icom implements a step offset like my AOR AR3000 did back in 1993 so that you can do can start at an odd frequency and do the desired stepping there, then do a 2.5 or a custom sized stepping. AOR was one of the first ones to do the 8.33 correctly for some air frequencies used in other areas. While ICOM is at it do a box like the ARD25 made by AOR to make legacy receivers receive digital modulations without commiting a computer to do it full time. Good luck on getting ICOM Japan to listen to user needs they can be VERY HARD HEADED with things, went round and round on the PCR 1000 back in 1994 with them and there "unlimited channel scanning claim" as long as you did it in the small banks they made in the software and they were very stubborn on letting outside developers have control code of the PCR radios.

 

[tumegpc]

I recently contacted ICOM with questions about the R30 regarding DMR & no 2.5Khz step. Here's the response I got from ICOM:

Thank you for your email regarding the IC-R30 and the 2.5kHz tuning step. As you know, the R30 does not have a tuning step of 2.5kHz. I would like to understand why the 2.5 kHz tuning step is a deal breaker so I could try to get this added in a future firmware update. As far as DMR, this has been a major topic of discussion and I am still trying to get this as a feature upgrade. As there are licensing fees for DMR, what would you see as a fair cost to add this to the R30?

Best regards,

Ray Novak, N9JA
Senior Sales Manager

Let's let Mr. Novak know we really would like a 2.5 KHz step added and a DMR option. His contact info is

RayNovak@IcomAmerica.com

Lets also tell him we want a TRUNKING option, too! It's nice to see ICOM is listening to it's customer base, so be nice!
Bob
N2OAM

Thanks for the contact info, email sent.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

W2GLD;
I am talking about channel centers/tuning steps. Not bandwidth or deviation neither of which were the question.

Here from the Icom ICR-30 specs:
----------------------------------
Tuning steps 0.01, 0.1, 1, 3.125, 5, 6.25, 8.33*, 9*, 10, 12.5, 15, 20, 25, 30, 50, 100, 125, 200 kHz
* May be available, depending on the operating band and mode.
-------------------------------------

View attachment 66958

Yes 7.5 KHz is the norm for much of the part 90 VHF band.

Please see the above table.
1)I am assuming that the ICR-30 has no capability of tuning 10 Hz steps in the FM mode shown in Gold above. Note the whole integers. If it does with full functionality, the issue is moot. I don't own an ICR-30 so the OP can comment further.

2) The ICR-30 tuning steps of 100 Hz, 3.125 KHz, and 6.125 KHz shown in red will not resolve properly on channels requiring a 7.5 or 2.5 KHz step. Note the fractional integers. The three channels in the example cannot be resolved accurately.

3) The tuning step of 7.5 KHz shown in black will only resolve certain channels with 7.5 KHz steps. Inexplicably ICOM does not show this tuning step in the specifications, though 15 KHz steps (pre narrowband) are available.

4) The ideal tuning step of 2.5 KHz shown in green will resolve channels with 7.5 and 2.5 KHz centers (as well as 15 KHz and their multiples).

I should have removed the second instance of my table on the last edit. The bottom one has a math error.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[rja1]

Ok, I see that 2.5 KHz step is what's needed. But you're telling me that even using 100 Hz (0.1 KHz) I can't get the voice channels in this system https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=6033 to resolve correctly? Twenty five steps of 100 Hz = 2.5KHz, no? So as it stands, there is no way to put these frequencies into R30 memory with the correct resolution? Too bad, I really like the form factor of the R30. Looks a lot like my IC-RX7.
Bob

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Ok, I see that 2.5 KHz step is what's needed. But you're telling me that even using 100 Hz (0.1 KHz) I can't get the voice channels in this system https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=6033 to resolve correctly? Twenty five steps of 100 Hz = 2.5KHz, no? So as it stands, there is no way to put these frequencies into R30 memory with the correct resolution? Too bad, I really like the form factor of the R30. Looks a lot like my IC-RX7.
Bob

Being 50, 100 or even 500 Hz off will work for analog signals. But they will not resolve properly to display correctly. For digital modes a 500 Hz error could break the demodulation.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[DaveNF2G]

What band uses a 2.5 kHz step anyway?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

What band uses a 2.5 kHz step anyway?

When the Part 90 VHF band was narrowbanded, the channels were reduced to 7.5 KHz centers. But there were some oddball channels that to resolve require 2.5 KHz steps. These were Mutual Aid and some wild fire service channels. This created a problem where some Motorola and Bendix King radios were incompatible with those channels. If you look at the rear of some VHF Astro Spectra radios you will see a sticker that says 2.5 KHz on the radios withe the newer synthesizer.

 

[ka3jjz]

Looks like I'm getting tuning steps confused with bandwidth. Here's the trunked system I want to monitor:

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=6033

What would the correct tuning step be for this trunked system? Looks to me like 5 KHz would work. Anyone with a R30 monitoring this system?

Thanks,
Bob
N2OAM

Not to put to fine a point on this, but while you could monitor this system conventionally, you can't trunktrack with this radio and would constantly be locking out control channels. A good quality scanner will handle this system as it's good old Phase 1 with nothing encrypted in the database listing. Mike