The only mandate I've heard of anytime recently the mandate to reduce PSAPs. Out here that led to 4 different counties dispatching agencies in our county in addition to the 3 dispatch centers in the county
Starcom Mandate?
- Thread starter jeatock
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officerdave
Retired LEO
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No mandate here that I am aware of , nor are other "insiders" in local public safety communications aware. Will and DeKalb are now on County Wide EF J systems. I doubt that they are going to StarCom any time soon. Funding is one reason and politics is the other, for those not on StarCom. Unlike some other States, there is NO real funding for ALL agencies to be on StarCom . Heck the State cant even fund ITTF radios that they! handed out years ago. Mandated consolidation of Dispatch Centers, might be what was being talked about. By us that has and still is taking place. My County will be down to 3 Dispatch Centers by the end of the year.
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Today I received emails from several official sources confirming that the statements made by Adams fire/EMS responders were a misunderstanding of some Illinois agencies receiving one or two free SC21 radios for statewide and regional interoperability use only. Policy and radio officials all responded with "What Starcom mandate? There is none."
Basically, this is the same as the former MABAS distribution with Motorola's system access fees funded by ITTF. When state service funding was cancelled most local agencies returned their SC21's instead of paying $600 a year for the honor of having them. Receiving agencies now are responsible for a reduced $100/year/radio service fee for access to the statewide interop template. The reduced fee radios do not replace any existing system, only provide a secondary means of interoperable regional and statewide communication.
That's what I figured, but the questions posed at the meeting caught me off guard.
Adams and Pike are keeping routine communications on analog VHF for the foreseeable future. Both have wide area coverage existing infrastructure that works.
Adams and Pike also have one PSAP per county, are investing in Next-Gen E911, and do not anticipate primary dispatch consolidation. Inbound 911 call saturation and failure fallovers are a different matter, and those calls already route elsewhere.
Calhoun and other smaller countries lacking funds for Next-Gen E911 HAVE contracted with regional dispatch centers to stay compliant but those moves do not include SC21 transitions, only a foreign dispatcher's voice on their existing VHF systems.
Basically, this is the same as the former MABAS distribution with Motorola's system access fees funded by ITTF. When state service funding was cancelled most local agencies returned their SC21's instead of paying $600 a year for the honor of having them. Receiving agencies now are responsible for a reduced $100/year/radio service fee for access to the statewide interop template. The reduced fee radios do not replace any existing system, only provide a secondary means of interoperable regional and statewide communication.
That's what I figured, but the questions posed at the meeting caught me off guard.
Adams and Pike are keeping routine communications on analog VHF for the foreseeable future. Both have wide area coverage existing infrastructure that works.
Adams and Pike also have one PSAP per county, are investing in Next-Gen E911, and do not anticipate primary dispatch consolidation. Inbound 911 call saturation and failure fallovers are a different matter, and those calls already route elsewhere.
Calhoun and other smaller countries lacking funds for Next-Gen E911 HAVE contracted with regional dispatch centers to stay compliant but those moves do not include SC21 transitions, only a foreign dispatcher's voice on their existing VHF systems.
There were several programs over the years that involved radios distributed to local agencies for interoperability. Most famous was the ISPERN radios of the 1970's and 1980's where VHF mobile radios were provided for any police department to be installed in squad cars, thousands of these were provided by the state in a successful program to foster interoperability. These were 4-channel 110-watt Motorola and GE mobile radios with priority scan for ISPERN (154.680 at first, later changed to 155.475). Agencies were allowed to install their own channel elements in Channels 2-4 but the Priority Scan feature was hard-wired to force ISPERN to scan. It was common for agencies that moved to T-Band in the Chicago area to put their old VHF channel in the F-2 slot for C-C purposes, many towns also used the PW channels. The state provided radios had red mics and custom-labeled faceplates on the control head to distinguish them. Base stations were only allowed at ISP posts and the Cook County and Lake County SO's. Chicago PD had remote access to the Cook County SO transmitter.
There was a similar program for ambulances with the MERCI program. These radios usually had yellow mics. This also included base radios at hospital emergency rooms.
About 10-15 years ago ILEAS/ITTF provided a SC21 mobile radio with magmount antenna and AC power supply mounted to a board for any public safety agency that requested one. The SC21 radios were pre-paid for a specified amount of time and included the InterOp template as well as the I-Tac channels. This template was redone a couple times over the years and we all had to have them retouched by a vendor for updates, including the Nextel driven rebanding. After the grant period was over agencies that wanted to retain these radios were responsible for airtime charges as any other SC21 radio, later a deal was made to reduce these charges for "Interop Only" users. Agencies already on SC21 were allowed access to the InterOp talkgroups for no additional airtime charge with their own radios.
In the same time frame there was a separate program where a VHF radio was provided programmed for ESMARN and other VHF inter-op freqs like V-Tac. I think this was funded/coordinated by IEMA but I am not positive. These were plain-jane XTL5000's programmed with ESMARN, V-Tac and (for police departments) ISPERN or (for FD's) IFERN. These were also intended to be used in 9-1-1 centers.
In the Chicago area Cook County provided portable and mobile radios to many police and fire agencies on the Cook County "500 Series" SC21 system that also included the InterOp template and some of the Cook County Sheriff talkgroups. Each police and fire agency was offered 2 portable radios (APX7000's) that could be programmed with the VHF interOp channels as well as the agency's own channels, later UHF APX's were also available for police agencies on UHF. A mobile radio (XTL5000) with a power supply and mag-mount antenna was also provided to 9-1-1 centers.
There were other Interoperability initiatives as well over the years, mostly funded by some grant or another.
Totally separate was the 9-1-1 PSAP statute that mandated centralizing the many 9-1-1 centers that handled populations under 25,000. This resulted in many new and expanded central dispatch systems, many of which also moved to SC21. While SC21 was not mandated as the platform for radio communications, the timing worked out for many agencies that had to replace infrastructure due to age or the T-Band debacle so it was more convenient to use SC21 than build/rebuild their own infrastructure. More agencies will likely join SC21 as their existing infrastructure comes due for replacement.
One of the biggest drivers towards SC21 is the cost of phone lines that many legacy systems use to connect receive sites, repeaters and other parts of the system. Phone lines are getting way more expensive every year and the cost of converting to microwave or other connectivity is prohibitive for many users. Plus it is a lot easier to buy a bunch of new portable and mobile radios and pay an airtime bill every month than to build your own system these days.
There was a similar program for ambulances with the MERCI program. These radios usually had yellow mics. This also included base radios at hospital emergency rooms.
About 10-15 years ago ILEAS/ITTF provided a SC21 mobile radio with magmount antenna and AC power supply mounted to a board for any public safety agency that requested one. The SC21 radios were pre-paid for a specified amount of time and included the InterOp template as well as the I-Tac channels. This template was redone a couple times over the years and we all had to have them retouched by a vendor for updates, including the Nextel driven rebanding. After the grant period was over agencies that wanted to retain these radios were responsible for airtime charges as any other SC21 radio, later a deal was made to reduce these charges for "Interop Only" users. Agencies already on SC21 were allowed access to the InterOp talkgroups for no additional airtime charge with their own radios.
In the same time frame there was a separate program where a VHF radio was provided programmed for ESMARN and other VHF inter-op freqs like V-Tac. I think this was funded/coordinated by IEMA but I am not positive. These were plain-jane XTL5000's programmed with ESMARN, V-Tac and (for police departments) ISPERN or (for FD's) IFERN. These were also intended to be used in 9-1-1 centers.
In the Chicago area Cook County provided portable and mobile radios to many police and fire agencies on the Cook County "500 Series" SC21 system that also included the InterOp template and some of the Cook County Sheriff talkgroups. Each police and fire agency was offered 2 portable radios (APX7000's) that could be programmed with the VHF interOp channels as well as the agency's own channels, later UHF APX's were also available for police agencies on UHF. A mobile radio (XTL5000) with a power supply and mag-mount antenna was also provided to 9-1-1 centers.
There were other Interoperability initiatives as well over the years, mostly funded by some grant or another.
Totally separate was the 9-1-1 PSAP statute that mandated centralizing the many 9-1-1 centers that handled populations under 25,000. This resulted in many new and expanded central dispatch systems, many of which also moved to SC21. While SC21 was not mandated as the platform for radio communications, the timing worked out for many agencies that had to replace infrastructure due to age or the T-Band debacle so it was more convenient to use SC21 than build/rebuild their own infrastructure. More agencies will likely join SC21 as their existing infrastructure comes due for replacement.
One of the biggest drivers towards SC21 is the cost of phone lines that many legacy systems use to connect receive sites, repeaters and other parts of the system. Phone lines are getting way more expensive every year and the cost of converting to microwave or other connectivity is prohibitive for many users. Plus it is a lot easier to buy a bunch of new portable and mobile radios and pay an airtime bill every month than to build your own system these days.
Not in Woodford county it isn't. We're adding two sites to provide portable coverage. One on the Minonk water tower and another a couple of miles northeast of Metamora. The rural Metamora site is an old Verizon microwave tower that they are going to sign over to the county. Getting the microwave dishes off it is the sticking point as current tower loading standards require removal to put the SC21 equipment up and no one wants to foot that bill. Then there is rental for the land that tower is on as well as paying Minonk for site use.
The original idea was for the county to be up and running by now with cities migrating over as possible through this year. The latest thinking is to have operations switch over this summer at the earliest. The delay is fine with me as I've been told all traffic will be ENC.
I completely agree with jeatock about the use of 'non repeated' command/on scene channels. Having to rely on a tower/site some five miles (more or less) away to get your urgent message out, then back from that repeated site could create serious safety issues. Especially when the emergency personnel you are talking to are probably 10-50 feet from where you are standing.
I live in the St Louis area and even though the city uses a repeated (MOSWIN) command radio structure it seems to work very well. The county's system (SLATER), in my opinion, does not work as well and I have heard, on occasion, garbled or missed transmissions from firefighters on scene trying to communicate with others in a very small geographical area. I believe they have around 16 sites within the county for their system.
I know that Chicago and Los Angeles fire departments switch to non-repeated channels for command/on scene usage. I am sure they are aware of the possible drawbacks and have chosen to go that route. Missouri's statewide highway department uses older VHF high band simplex radios that work OK when they are gang plowing and such during bad weather however it seems they too, on occasions, have very staticky radio transmissions. They do have the capability of switching to a repeated channel on the same frequency but that creates a weird echo or garbled radio signal because the trucks are right next to each other. So they stay on the simplex channel which work well.
I have suggested (in simple conversations with a few people) that the MODOT trucks switch to the statewide MOSWIN radio system which will cover the entire state for them and would make logistical sense. When gang plowing they can switch to a simplex channel that would eliminate any garbled or echoed unreadable transmissions that are similar to the VHF repeated channels.
It is a great idea to use the VHF color channels of the MABAS group for on scene comms down here in southern IL. I too believe it is the way to go. Too bad I can't hear those transmissions on this side of the river. Oh well.
I live in the St Louis area and even though the city uses a repeated (MOSWIN) command radio structure it seems to work very well. The county's system (SLATER), in my opinion, does not work as well and I have heard, on occasion, garbled or missed transmissions from firefighters on scene trying to communicate with others in a very small geographical area. I believe they have around 16 sites within the county for their system.
I know that Chicago and Los Angeles fire departments switch to non-repeated channels for command/on scene usage. I am sure they are aware of the possible drawbacks and have chosen to go that route. Missouri's statewide highway department uses older VHF high band simplex radios that work OK when they are gang plowing and such during bad weather however it seems they too, on occasions, have very staticky radio transmissions. They do have the capability of switching to a repeated channel on the same frequency but that creates a weird echo or garbled radio signal because the trucks are right next to each other. So they stay on the simplex channel which work well.
I have suggested (in simple conversations with a few people) that the MODOT trucks switch to the statewide MOSWIN radio system which will cover the entire state for them and would make logistical sense. When gang plowing they can switch to a simplex channel that would eliminate any garbled or echoed unreadable transmissions that are similar to the VHF repeated channels.
It is a great idea to use the VHF color channels of the MABAS group for on scene comms down here in southern IL. I too believe it is the way to go. Too bad I can't hear those transmissions on this side of the river. Oh well.
The MABAS-IL system is one of very few things to come out of Cook County that really benefits downstate. I'm a huge supporter (and division officer). If you think the radio portion is something you need to look at the complete list of standardized equipment, support, training and services. We're the national poster child for how mutual aid ais is supposed to function.
Over the years I have identified three self-inflicted problems with using the MABAS color channels:
1. The six standard channels are low-power only (10W ERP max) with NO base stations ... unless you are close to Missouri where FG-White is the same freq as MO Statewide Fire Mutual Aid but with a different CTCSS. The theory is that with no off-scene high powered traffic the chances of critical incident traffic being 'walked on' is reduced. Another advantage is anyone coming to play has the same standard channels as you do.
Those theories have proven themselves. The problem is as you said- portable simplex traffic cannot be heard at any significant distance. That 'problem' has prompted some bureaucrats and lawyers to complain traffic cannot be monitored by micro-managing chiefs and recorded in distant dispatch centers. Waaa. I'd much rather be heard reliably 200 feet away over stupid plain old fashioned analog simplex and avoid injury than testify in court how the injury was caused in part by a failure of an elegantly engineered repeater or digital trunking system.
2. Hose humpers (said with tremendous respect as I have humped my share of hose) need to - gasp - remember to change channels when they get on scene. Firefighting: two hundred years of tradition unimpeded by progress. Get over it.
3. Some firefighters in some agencies are genetically defective in a manner that only allows radio traffic transmitted over Grandpappy's traditional proprietary 153.8450 radio frequency to pass their ears. Their genetic difference renders them incapable of understanding traffic on any other RF frequency. They can immediately tell the difference between 153.8450 and 153.8300: "Bubba is all garbled, so we can't use that new fireground channel. If you come with mutual aid you will have to use our secret squirrel channel because we can't use anything else."
You think I'm kidding? Think again. I can name names and am too old to care who I tick off.
Ladies and gentlemen, I have digressed off topic and it has been an eventful day.
Another man-made artificial disaster averted.
Thanks.
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