TelePath System 268 Con+/Apple DMR Tier III

[mcjones2013]

The previous threads on this have been locked.

I was running DSD+ on sites 38 and 39 of the TelePath Corporation (System 268), and they are both still identifying as Connect Plus (Con+).

For Site 4 (Apple - Elk Grove), it is now appearing as Tier 3 (MOT) (System L9)

I noticed the system type for the overall TelePath Corporation database entry (link) was changed to DMR Tier III.

I just wanted to know what others are seeing for their 268's high-coverage sites and the Apple-specific sites? Do we need to separate the systems now in the database since they are different system types and system IDs? Can a Connect Plus system ALSO be a Tier III system?

What are others seeing for the Apple-specific sites and the high-coverage sites for system type?

 

[b52hbuff]

When you say System L9, does that mean System ID?

I'm assuming that it is, since all of the Apple sites in the Bay area have moved off of Telepath. The Telepath sites listed at the Infinite Loop and Spaceship campus have been deactivated. Forgot to add that all of these SysID 9h sites are CON+ and not DMR T3.

For Apple in the Bay Area, I see...
Site 2 / Infinite Loop (Old Main Campus)
FCC Callsign WPWU695 (APPLE INC) (radioreference.com)

Note that the last two frequencies are the only ones to be monitored. The first two are part of the licenses, and I've calculated the LCN numbers. Traffic has been pretty low during lockdown, so was hoping for more activity.

The Base is 444.9875 and the offset is 0.0125.
Site 9 / Vallco (Provides coverage for new Spaceship)
FCC Callsign WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) (radioreference.com)

All frequencies monitored

Site 18 Black Mountain (Wide area coverage)
FCC Callsign WQTF376 (TELEPATH CORPORATION) (radioreference.com)
FCC Callsign WRAB529 (Telepath Corporation) (radioreference.com)
FCC Callsign WQQT906 (TELEPATH CORPORATION) (radioreference.com)



Site 32 / Site coverage for 2 Results Way in Cupertino
FCC Callsign WQPW718 (APPLE, INC) (radioreference.com)

Only first two frequencies monitored.

TGIDs monitored

 

[b52hbuff]

And to add the Telepath pruning...
TelePath Corporation Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies (radioreference.com)
These sites can be removed:
Site 01 - Apple (Cupertino, CA) Site Details (TelePath Corporation) (radioreference.com)
Site 02 - Apple HQ (Cupertino, CA) Site Details (TelePath Corporation) (radioreference.com)

I need to go through my notes, but any Site 18 frequency used by Apple in Sys ID 9 is gone.
Site 18 - Black Mountain Site Details (TelePath Corporation) (radioreference.com)

And while I was playing hide and go seek in San Jose, I can confirm that these sites are gone:
Site 19 - San Jose Site Details (TelePath Corporation) (radioreference.com)
Site 20 - San Jose Site Details (TelePath Corporation) (radioreference.com)

 

[mcjones2013]

When you say System L9, does that mean System ID?

Yes. For example, when scanning the wide-area coverage sites, they show system ID 268, and as Connect Plus (Con+) when using DSD+.

When I scan the Apple - Elk Grove site (Site 4), it *used* to identify as system ID 268, but now is identifying as system ID L9, and as a DMR Tier III (MOT) system when using DSD+. Also the LCNs for Site 4 have changed to the 4-digit CHAN ID-ype (similar to what you have found).

The bigger issue I've now found is the System 268 database entry was changed from Connect Plus to Tier III, and it has stripped all the known LCNs from each site that were previously confirmed. Not an issue for us who keep notes on this system, but could be an issue for people who import it from the database or use the ZIP code programming.

 

[b52hbuff]

I have some of the LCNs stored for the sites near me in the Bay Area. I can post if it would be helpful.

I wonder who changed the system type and why? I think it was an error, because Telepath (268d) is CON+ in the Bay Area. And DMR T3 also has LCNs, just like CON+.

In the Bay area, when frequencies migrated from Telepath (268) to Apple(9), they changed color codes. Did they change colors in Elk Grove?

 

[mcjones2013]

So there's two things here that I believe need to be done:

1, System 268 in the RRDB needs to be changed back to Connect Plus, and the confirmed LCNs for the wide area coverage sites need to be added back in as they're confirmed.

2, as each Apple-related site is confirmed to no longer be part of System 268, the Apple-related sites need to be removed from System 268, and added into their own, new DMR Tier III system in the database with the new CH ID (LCN) numbers. DSD+ is telling me the system ID is L9, but maybe it's just supposed to be 9.

 

[mcjones2013]

Basically, it appears that Apple has separated from the wide area System 268 and are now on their own DMR Tier III multi-site system (System L9, or 9)

 

[b52hbuff]

Basically, it appears that Apple has separated from the wide area System 268 and are now on their own DMR Tier III multi-site system (System L9, or 9)

Interesting... I append the system type to the name of the configuration in Sentinel. I made a mistake and Apple(9) in the Bay Area is DMR T3.

And I just confirmed that my configs and the local Telepath control channels are configured as CON+.

 

[b52hbuff]

I just noticed something else is off on Sentinel. Try going into the preloaded lists, and look for Telepath? Some of the other big wide area SMRs are there, like Fisher, but it looks like Sentinel doesn't have Telepath anymore. I wonder if that is a side effect from the missing LCNs? It sees it as an invalid config and doesn't download it?

 

[inigo88]

I'm going to volunteer to split Apple off telepath into its own Tier III system and try to restore system 268 back to Connect Plus. All the voice frequency LCNs are likely going to be lost due to the system format change and will have to be reconstructed. I can do some research into old submissions and piece together as much as I can, but your old records would be much appreciated for this effort.

@b52hbuff and other Bay Area DMR sleuths, your help in identifying and collecting the Apple DMR Tier III site information would be greatly appreciated. Since the system info is messed up that means any homepatrol type scanner fed by the RR database will be too. If you can disregard Sentinel and manually tune the old identified frequencies to determine the new system info that would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: The plot thickens! The Culver City site in southern CA has upgraded to DMR Tier III but still has system ID 268.

 

[mcjones2013]

Edit: The plot thickens! The Culver City site in southern CA has upgraded to DMR Tier III but still has system ID 268.

Well shoot, maybe they're transitioning all of 268 to Tier III? I'll check my TelePath sites and local Apple site tomorrow and see what they're broadcasting.

 

[inigo88]

Well shoot, maybe they're transitioning all of 268 to Tier III? I'll check my TelePath sites and local Apple site tomorrow and see what they're broadcasting.

Thanks a bunch! It wouldn’t surprise me if they were in some state of transition between Connect Plus and Tier III. In the meantime the system architectures are separate and likely won’t see each other as neighbors, but they may be linking the wide area users back together through some back end IP connection or something. I.e. right now there should be a separate Connect Plus and Tier III system in the db, but eventually all sites may transition to Tier III and then we’ll deprecate the old connect plus system.

 

[b52hbuff]

I'm going to volunteer to split Apple off telepath into its own Tier III system and try to restore system 268 back to Connect Plus. All the voice frequency LCNs are likely going to be lost due to the system format change and will have to be reconstructed. I can do some research into old submissions and piece together as much as I can, but your old records would be much appreciated for this effort.

@b52hbuff and other Bay Area DMR sleuths, your help in identifying and collecting the Apple DMR Tier III site information would be greatly appreciated. Since the system info is messed up that means any homepatrol type scanner fed by the RR database will be too. If you can disregard Sentinel and manually tune the old identified frequencies to determine the new system info that would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: The plot thickens! The Culver City site in southern CA has upgraded to DMR Tier III but still has system ID 268.

I did. I put all of the information on the new Apple sites in this thread.

 

[LAflyer]

I have been conversing with inigo88 in the background and it seems there are 3 variants at play at the moment.

Today I checked out site 26, Apple in Culver City, and noted an added frequency(461.65) on the site. The control channel indicates Tier-III with Sys ID 268.

So, we probably have:
1. Con+ system 268
2. Tier-III system L9
3. Tier-III system 268

As expressed by inigo88, I suspect there is some form of upgrade project at work here. Maybe from cost or logistics reasons, it made sense to transition the Apple sites first, while the remainder of the system continued to operate as Con+.

I also find it interesting they kept Apple site numbers the same as part of Tier-III instead of simply 1,2,3,4, etc which indicates to me they are still part of the broader Telepath 268 system.

Additionally, I discovered an additional Apple/Telepath license (WRFX343) for 3 additional locations in Los Angeles. My quick monitoring appears none are on the air yet, though I might need to drive closer to each location in the future to truly verify.

Besides California, we also have the Apple sites in AZ, NC, NV and TX that would need confirmation as to their status also.

 

[inigo88]

Any updates on the Telepath vs Apple systems? Have any more sites switched from Connect Plus to DMR Tier 3? If all the Telepath sites are in the process of changing to TIII(MOT) we are hesitant to create the interim system, but if things are stable then it’s probably worth updating the database.

Upon further reading, DSDPlus “TIII(MOT)” is actually Motorola Capacity Max. Motorola took the DMR Tier III standard and piggybacked proprietary Motorola stuff on it.

As for the L9 vs 9 system ID, the network ID is just 9. The L stands for system size Large. They have Tiny, Small, Large and Huge.

To make things even more complicated there are discrepancies between the way DSDPlus and Uniden show some of the system values. This thread goes into a lot of technical detail:DSDPlus - Network and Site Numbers DSDPlus vs Uniden DMR Type 3

 

[mtindor]

I miss KMA371! He would have been on top of this for sure.

 

[b52hbuff]

I miss KMA371! He would have been on top of this for sure.

Maybe yes, and maybe no. My issue was that he put several sites into the database that weren't active. When I asked how he obtained the information (e.g. monitoring vs. network map dump) he got defensive. He left once when he lost his temper and his last departure was also over losing his temper.

I'd rather have someone less "prolific" if they were better tempered and worked better with others. And from some other posts, it wasn't an isolated issue...

KMA371

Has anyone heard from KMA371 lately? Looks like he hasn't posted in over 3 weeks, which is unusual. Just checking to make sure he is code 4. I don't know him personally- just as an active admin and poster to RR.

forums.radioreference.com

 

[es93546]

Maybe yes, and maybe no. My issue was that he put several sites into the database that weren't active. When I asked how he obtained the information (e.g. monitoring vs. network map dump) he got defensive. He left once when he lost his temper and his last departure was also over losing his temper.

I'd rather have someone less "prolific" if they were better tempered and worked better with others. And from some other posts, it wasn't an isolated issue...

KMA371

Has anyone heard from KMA371 lately? Looks like he hasn't posted in over 3 weeks, which is unusual. Just checking to make sure he is code 4. I don't know him personally- just as an active admin and poster to RR.

forums.radioreference.com

Not isolated to one post. Actually not isolated to one database administrator either. I have several experiences with "371" also. He had a couple of predecessors and one of the site's most important people that were difficult. There is a lot more than I will say here, but I ended up quitting as a result. It took me nearly 5 years to join again, with not the same level of enthusiasm I once had. There is one database administrator now, who can't be convinced to show one federal agency's data correctly. My only choice is to outlast him also. The database has some significant problems and contains a lot of incorrect information, some of it because no one holds the administrator's accountable for written RR DB policy. Some of it because the greatest number of members don't observe and report, they want others to maintain the database.

The entire site has some information conveyance shortcomings, but it remains static, mostly, in my opinion, because of a lack of public information, public affairs, "interpretive" (in a park ranger's context) input into site design and policy. This to balance out the "techy" presence on the site. The world needs lots of different people to function. However, there are some great people on this site and most of the database administrators are great to work with. I try to thank them with every submission. They are not recognized for their hard work.

 

[b52hbuff]

But to @mtindor's point, the only reason that @kma371 isn't contributing is because it was his personal choice, based on his ability to interact with others on this site. There is nothing keeping him from contributing either on the forums or anonymously feeding information to other database administrators. It isn't like everyone who had an issue "voted him off of the island".

 

[b52hbuff]

I have been conversing with inigo88 in the background and it seems there are 3 variants at play at the moment.

Today I checked out site 26, Apple in Culver City, and noted an added frequency(461.65) on the site. The control channel indicates Tier-III with Sys ID 268.

So, we probably have:
1. Con+ system 268
2. Tier-III system L9
3. Tier-III system 268

As expressed by inigo88, I suspect there is some form of upgrade project at work here. Maybe from cost or logistics reasons, it made sense to transition the Apple sites first, while the remainder of the system continued to operate as Con+.

I also find it interesting they kept Apple site numbers the same as part of Tier-III instead of simply 1,2,3,4, etc which indicates to me they are still part of the broader Telepath 268 system.

Additionally, I discovered an additional Apple/Telepath license (WRFX343) for 3 additional locations in Los Angeles. My quick monitoring appears none are on the air yet, though I might need to drive closer to each location in the future to truly verify.

Besides California, we also have the Apple sites in AZ, NC, NV and TX that would need confirmation as to their status also.

I can monitor Site 16 and 18 from my home. They are still and always have been CON+ 268, as per my SDS100.