TelePath System 268 Con+/Apple DMR Tier III

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
The previous threads on this have been locked.

I was running DSD+ on sites 38 and 39 of the TelePath Corporation (System 268), and they are both still identifying as Connect Plus (Con+).

For Site 4 (Apple - Elk Grove), it is now appearing as Tier 3 (MOT) (System L9)

I noticed the system type for the overall TelePath Corporation database entry (link) was changed to DMR Tier III.
Yes. For example, when scanning the wide-area coverage sites, they show system ID 268, and as Connect Plus (Con+) when using DSD+.

When I scan the Apple - Elk Grove site (Site 4), it *used* to identify as system ID 268, but now is identifying as system ID L9, and as a DMR Tier III (MOT) system when using DSD+. Also the LCNs for Site 4 have changed to the 4-digit CHAN ID-ype (similar to what you have found).

The bigger issue I've now found is the System 268 database entry was changed from Connect Plus to Tier III, and it has stripped all the known LCNs from each site that were previously confirmed. Not an issue for us who keep notes on this system, but could be an issue for people who import it from the database or use the ZIP code programming.
Well shoot, maybe they're transitioning all of 268 to Tier III? I'll check my TelePath sites and local Apple site tomorrow and see what they're broadcasting.
I have been conversing with inigo88 in the background and it seems there are 3 variants at play at the moment.

Today I checked out site 26, Apple in Culver City, and noted an added frequency(461.65) on the site. The control channel indicates Tier-III with Sys ID 268.

So, we probably have:
1. Con+ system 268
2. Tier-III system L9
3. Tier-III system 268

As expressed by inigo88, I suspect there is some form of upgrade project at work here. Maybe from cost or logistics reasons, it made sense to transition the Apple sites first, while the remainder of the system continued to operate as Con+.

I also find it interesting they kept Apple site numbers the same as part of Tier-III instead of simply 1,2,3,4, etc which indicates to me they are still part of the broader Telepath 268 system.

Additionally, I discovered an additional Apple/Telepath license (WRFX343) for 3 additional locations in Los Angeles. My quick monitoring appears none are on the air yet, though I might need to drive closer to each location in the future to truly verify.

Besides California, we also have the Apple sites in AZ, NC, NV and TX that would need confirmation as to their status also.
Any updates on the Telepath vs Apple systems? Have any more sites switched from Connect Plus to DMR Tier 3? If all the Telepath sites are in the process of changing to TIII(MOT) we are hesitant to create the interim system, but if things are stable then it’s probably worth updating the database.

Upon further reading, DSDPlus “TIII(MOT)” is actually Motorola Capacity Max. Motorola took the DMR Tier III standard and piggybacked proprietary Motorola stuff on it.

As for the L9 vs 9 system ID, the network ID is just 9. The L stands for system size Large. They have Tiny, Small, Large and Huge.

To make things even more complicated there are discrepancies between the way DSDPlus and Uniden show some of the system values. This thread goes into a lot of technical detail:DSDPlus - Network and Site Numbers DSDPlus vs Uniden DMR Type 3
So why was the Telepath System changed from CON+ to DMRT3? Was this based on just what was observed in Culver City? What other sites have come up as DMRT3/System 268?
 

inigo88

California DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,864
Location
San Diego, CA
Step 1 of returning the main system to Connect Plus is complete (and LCNs verified with "wayback machine" from 2018).

Next steps are to spin off the DMR Tier III system 9 (shows up as "L9" in DSDPlus) and the DMR Tier III system 268.

I'll do what I can with what's been posted in this thread, but your submissions would be much appreciated!
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
I'll go through my notes and see what I have. Do you have questions about any specific site? All of the sites in my monitoring area are CON+.

If you think some other Bay Area sites may be DMRT3, just tell me which ones, and I'll go out and take a listen.
 

inigo88

California DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,864
Location
San Diego, CA
I'll go through my notes and see what I have. Do you have questions about any specific site? All of the sites in my monitoring area are CON+.

If you think some other Bay Area sites may be DMRT3, just tell me which ones, and I'll go out and take a listen.
I might have misunderstood, but I thought earlier in the thread that some of the Apple bay area sites are no longer on the Connect+ system (system ID 268) and showed up on a DMR Tier III (MOT) (Motorola Capacity Max) system (system ID 9). The DMR "TIII(MOT)" Apple site on the system @mcjones2013 found in Sacramento with DSDPlus Fastlane is system ID "L9", but the L just means "Large" and the "9" is the actual system ID.

Honestly if you could just scan 450-455 MHz, 460-465 MHz and 480-490 MHz with your SDS-100 and note any Telepath control channels, what system type (Connect+ vs. Tier III), and system ID is, that would be a huge help towards figuring out the current snapshot of where this system is in terms of transitioning. I have a theory that Telepath operates their commercial network 268 separately from the Apple system, and they're transitioning Apple to their own system (licensed to Apple but still operated/maintained by Telepath) on system 9. Time will tell I guess! :)
 

ECPD279

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
792
Location
Bay Area, CA
I currently have four "L9" systems recorded, but signals are weakish from the north bay, and the licensing is all over the place on these. I'll post what I have here, and maybe someone deeper in the south bay can see what you get. The site numbers are the default DSD+ FL site numbers. I'm still not really up to speed on the whole ability to change how DSD reads Tier III site numbers. I'll throw in the syscodes for those who can use them. Any lines without LCN or CC are because the transmission was brief and didn't catch the info.

Edited with additional site info, now that I know we're thinking Apple...

I just plugged these sites in to the SDS100, but haven't monitored anything yet.

Here's what I have...

L9-2 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00000010)

Freqs match with WPWU695 - Apple - Cupertino - One Infinite Loop

452.17500 CC4 Voice channel
464.78750 Voice channel
461.51250 Voice channel

Neighbors (Control Channel LCN) 3 (3005), 9 (3007), 18 (3187), 32 (1115)

==========================

L9-9 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00001001 )

Freqs match WQMI679 - Apple - 19333 Vallco Pkwy - Cupertino

463.77500 LCN 3007 Control
462.02500 Voice
LCNs captured but not identified 2643/2644, 2727/2728

Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
3 - 10.1001.00000011 (3005)
18 - 10.1001.00010010 (3187)
32 - 10.1001.00100000 (1115)

============================

L9-18 ( SysCode=10.1001.00010010 )

464.90000 LCN 3187/3188 Control - WRAB529 - Telepath - Black Mountain?
451.30000 LCN 1011/1012 Voice - WQTF376 - Telepath - Black Mountain / Vallco Pkwy / Newark?
464.45000 LCN 3115/3116 Voice - WQQT906 - Telepath - Black Mountain and several others
462.01250 LCN 2725/2726 Voice - WRAB529 - Telepath - Black Mountain?


Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
3 - 10.1001.00000011 (3005)
9 - 10.1001.00100000 (3007)
16 - 10.1001.00001001 (1, 6871)
32 - 10.1001.00010000 (1115)

===============================

L9-32 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00100000 )

Match to WQPW718 - Apple - 2 Results Way - Cupertino

451.95000 Voice
463.36250 LCN 2941/2942 Voice

Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
9 - 10.1001.00001001 (3007)
18 - 10.1001.00010010 (3187)
 
Last edited:

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
I currently have four "L9" systems recorded, but signals are weakish from the north bay, and the licensing is all over the place on these. I'll post what I have here, and maybe someone deeper in the south bay can see what you get. The site numbers are the default DSD+ FL site numbers. I'm still not really up to speed on the whole ability to change how DSD reads Tier III site numbers. I'll throw in the syscodes for those who can use them. Any lines without LCN or CC are because the transmission was brief and didn't catch the info.

Edited with additional site info, now that I know we're thinking Apple...

I just plugged these sites in to the SDS100, but haven't monitored anything yet.

Here's what I have...

L9-2 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00000010)

Freqs match with WPWU695 - Apple - Cupertino - One Infinite Loop

452.17500 CC4 Voice channel
464.78750 Voice channel
461.51250 Voice channel

Neighbors (Control Channel LCN) 3 (3005), 9 (3007), 18 (3187), 32 (1115)

==========================

L9-9 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00001001 )

Freqs match WQMI679 - Apple - 19333 Vallco Pkwy - Cupertino

463.77500 LCN 3007 Control
462.02500 Voice
LCNs captured but not identified 2643/2644, 2727/2728

Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
3 - 10.1001.00000011 (3005)
18 - 10.1001.00010010 (3187)
32 - 10.1001.00100000 (1115)

============================

L9-18 ( SysCode=10.1001.00010010 )

464.90000 LCN 3187/3188 Control - WRAB529 - Telepath - Black Mountain?
451.30000 LCN 1011/1012 Voice - WQTF376 - Telepath - Black Mountain / Vallco Pkwy / Newark?
464.45000 LCN 3115/3116 Voice - WQQT906 - Telepath - Black Mountain and several others
462.01250 LCN 2725/2726 Voice - WRAB529 - Telepath - Black Mountain?


Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
3 - 10.1001.00000011 (3005)
9 - 10.1001.00100000 (3007)
16 - 10.1001.00001001 (1, 6871)
32 - 10.1001.00010000 (1115)

===============================

L9-32 ( SysCode= 10.1001.00100000 )

Match to WQPW718 - Apple - 2 Results Way - Cupertino

451.95000 Voice
463.36250 LCN 2941/2942 Voice

Neighbors
Site# - Syscode (Control Channel LCN)
2 - 10.1001.00000010 (1151)
9 - 10.1001.00001001 (3007)
18 - 10.1001.00010010 (3187)
I skimmed it, but looks a lot like what I posted in Post #2.
 

ECPD279

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
792
Location
Bay Area, CA
Yup, it sure does now that I can see the images in your post. The computer I was using yesterday didn't like images in the forums. Apologies for cluttering.
 

inigo88

California DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,864
Location
San Diego, CA
Yup, it sure does now that I can see the images in your post. The computer I was using yesterday didn't like images in the forums. Apologies for cluttering.
Don’t apologize, every log file and snapshot helps especially since these systems appear to be in a state of transition and are changing. We also didn’t have site neighbors before your log so that’s a huge help to see which sites list which neighbors and get an idea of how big the system is. Can you confirm DSDPlus FL is calling the L9 sites “DMR TIII(MOT)”? If so the new system will be called Motorola CapacityMax. (It’s their proprietary Motorola spin on Tier III.)

@b52hbuff your post #2 said that system 9h was connect plus, but his DSD log says it’s Tier III. Can you confirm the system type icon on the SDS-100 top right corner now says tier III and not Con+? I was also confused because some of your LCNs in your spreadsheet screenshots said they were based on guesses, based on FCC license data. While the Apple licenses are pretty good, radioreference doesn’t consider FCC license data as “confirmed” use. FCC license data can be wildly inaccurate, especially when commercial system owners repurpose frequencies from one license for one site on a completely new site and don’t update the license... and basically assume that since they are licensed for that freq they can just reuse it however they want.

As a general FYI for submitting info to the database, speculation based on educated guesses is fine and can even be helpful in the forums to tip others off on new frequencies to look out for, but it needs to be separated from confirmed info. We are only allowed to add the personally confirmed info (ie monitored directly or read off the control channel using decoding software) to the database.
 
Last edited:

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
Yup, it sure does now that I can see the images in your post. The computer I was using yesterday didn't like images in the forums. Apologies for cluttering.
No apologies required! We're collaborating and verifying each other's data. ;)


I'm in the south bay. You say you're in the North Bay. Could you look at some of the nearby Telepath / 268 systems to see if they are CON+?
TelePath Corporation (Connect Plus) Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies (radioreference.com)

Can you hear Site 13 - Twin Peaks, Site 14 - Mt. Tam, Site 15 - Mt. Diablo?
 

inigo88

California DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,864
Location
San Diego, CA
No apologies required! We're collaborating and verifying each other's data. ;)
Love this! And happy you guys are able to cover your respective sides of the bay. Sorry I can't be there to run DSD also, but between the two of you plus mcjones in Sacramento I've got ample info to create the new Apple system.
 

inigo88

California DB Admin
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,864
Location
San Diego, CA
Hey guys, I created the new Apple system 9 here:

I tried to merge the data in this thread as best I could, but please submit any updates as you see fit. Would love to see DSD+ run on Elk Grove (L9-4) and any of the southern CA or surrounding state sites when anyone in those areas can give it a shot.

There appear to be two Bay Area sites still unidentified, L9-3 and L9-16. Based on the DSD+ FL LSNs, and assuming one band plan is used throughout (we might get lucky but they can have up to four), try the following frequencies for their control channels:

Site L9-3: LSN 3005 / LCN 1502 = 463.7625 MHz
Site L9-16: LSN 6871 / LCN 3435 = 487.925 MHz

I did some algebraic substitution to calculate the theoretical base frequency given the known output frequencies and LSNs for two RF channels, and got lucky. For every DSD+ LSN the base frequency matched. The formula is:

Base freq + LSN*step = output freq

Step = 0.00625 MHz (6.25 KHz)
Base = 444.981 MHz

I might have this part wrong but the conversion from LSN (received by DSD+ FL from the control channel) to LCN (used by Uniden scanners to track the system) is then LSN/2 - 0.5. So far it sanity checks against Ian Wraith's LCN calculator forum thread.

I put the converted LSN to LCN in the database, so any Uniden users give it a test drive and see if it tracks. @b52hbuff these differ from your post #2 LCNs, but that may have been back in the system's infancy and before we had control channel data. Does your SDS-100 track the system with these new LCNs, or your old ones?
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
Hey guys, I created the new Apple system 9 here:

I tried to merge the data in this thread as best I could, but please submit any updates as you see fit. Would love to see DSD+ run on Elk Grove (L9-4) and any of the southern CA or surrounding state sites when anyone in those areas can give it a shot.

There appear to be two Bay Area sites still unidentified, L9-3 and L9-16. Based on the DSD+ FL LSNs, and assuming one band plan is used throughout (we might get lucky but they can have up to four), try the following frequencies for their control channels:

Site L9-3: LSN 3005 / LCN 1502 = 463.7625 MHz
Site L9-16: LSN 6871 / LCN 3435 = 487.925 MHz

I did some algebraic substitution to calculate the theoretical base frequency given the known output frequencies and LSNs for two RF channels, and got lucky. For every DSD+ LSN the base frequency matched. The formula is:

Base freq + LSN*step = output freq

Step = 0.00625 MHz (6.25 KHz)
Base = 444.981 MHz

I might have this part wrong but the conversion from LSN (received by DSD+ FL from the control channel) to LCN (used by Uniden scanners to track the system) is then LSN/2 - 0.5. So far it sanity checks against Ian Wraith's LCN calculator forum thread.

I put the converted LSN to LCN in the database, so any Uniden users give it a test drive and see if it tracks. @b52hbuff these differ from your post #2 LCNs, but that may have been back in the system's infancy and before we had control channel data. Does your SDS-100 track the system with these new LCNs, or your old ones?
What "L9" site are we talking about? My math gives me a base of 444.9875 and a step of 12.5kHz or 0.0125.

Here is how those numbers work for Site 2 / Infinite Loop:
1620163719299.png

And Site 9 / Vallco:
1620163756590.png
Site 18 / Black Mountain
1620163786469.png
Site 32 / Results Way
1620163975451.png
I use those tables to validate what I get from the SDS100's LCN verification process. As you can tell, I've been trying to collect multiple runs for verification. If there is a 0, then maybe I haven't heard that frequency and/or the frequency was a guess from FCC records and not actually in use. The Calculated LCNs all adhere to the formula above. And the dated columns are simply information from the SDS LCN runs.
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
I put the converted LSN to LCN in the database, so any Uniden users give it a test drive and see if it tracks. @b52hbuff these differ from your post #2 LCNs, but that may have been back in the system's infancy and before we had control channel data. Does your SDS-100 track the system with these new LCNs, or your old ones?
It seems to track. The challenge is that during lockdown, not as much traffic and what traffic there is tends to be encrypted.
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
Don’t apologize, every log file and snapshot helps especially since these systems appear to be in a state of transition and are changing. We also didn’t have site neighbors before your log so that’s a huge help to see which sites list which neighbors and get an idea of how big the system is. Can you confirm DSDPlus FL is calling the L9 sites “DMR TIII(MOT)”? If so the new system will be called Motorola CapacityMax. (It’s their proprietary Motorola spin on Tier III.)

@b52hbuff your post #2 said that system 9h was connect plus, but his DSD log says it’s Tier III. Can you confirm the system type icon on the SDS-100 top right corner now says tier III and not Con+? I was also confused because some of your LCNs in your spreadsheet screenshots said they were based on guesses, based on FCC license data. While the Apple licenses are pretty good, radioreference doesn’t consider FCC license data as “confirmed” use. FCC license data can be wildly inaccurate, especially when commercial system owners repurpose frequencies from one license for one site on a completely new site and don’t update the license... and basically assume that since they are licensed for that freq they can just reuse it however they want.

As a general FYI for submitting info to the database, speculation based on educated guesses is fine and can even be helpful in the forums to tip others off on new frequencies to look out for, but it needs to be separated from confirmed info. We are only allowed to add the personally confirmed info (ie monitored directly or read off the control channel using decoding software) to the database.
My comment was in error/confusion. The "L9" Sites are all DMRT3. The Telepath / 268 sites are all CON+.

I have never seen a Telepath / 268 site in the bay area with DMRT3.

Do you have any Telepath / 268 site as DMRT3?

Apologies for the confusion.
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
I can confirm TIII (MOT)

See below...View attachment 103157
Ok, this is great. I know about Site 2 / Infinite Loop, Site 9 / Vallco (for Spaceship), Site 18 (wide area site on Black Mountain) and Site 32 / Results Way. S32 has a very compact RF footprint.

Your neighbor log shows sites 3 and 16 which are unknown to me. Can you help convert a DSD CC# (e.g. 3005 / 6871) to a frequency? We can the find the license and try to narrow down the site.
 

b52hbuff

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,674
Hey guys, I created the new Apple system 9 here:

I tried to merge the data in this thread as best I could, but please submit any updates as you see fit. Would love to see DSD+ run on Elk Grove (L9-4) and any of the southern CA or surrounding state sites when anyone in those areas can give it a shot.

There appear to be two Bay Area sites still unidentified, L9-3 and L9-16. Based on the DSD+ FL LSNs, and assuming one band plan is used throughout (we might get lucky but they can have up to four), try the following frequencies for their control channels:

Site L9-3: LSN 3005 / LCN 1502 = 463.7625 MHz
Site L9-16: LSN 6871 / LCN 3435 = 487.925 MHz

I did some algebraic substitution to calculate the theoretical base frequency given the known output frequencies and LSNs for two RF channels, and got lucky. For every DSD+ LSN the base frequency matched. The formula is:

Base freq + LSN*step = output freq

Step = 0.00625 MHz (6.25 KHz)
Base = 444.981 MHz

I might have this part wrong but the conversion from LSN (received by DSD+ FL from the control channel) to LCN (used by Uniden scanners to track the system) is then LSN/2 - 0.5. So far it sanity checks against Ian Wraith's LCN calculator forum thread.

I put the converted LSN to LCN in the database, so any Uniden users give it a test drive and see if it tracks. @b52hbuff these differ from your post #2 LCNs, but that may have been back in the system's infancy and before we had control channel data. Does your SDS-100 track the system with these new LCNs, or your old ones?
Ha! I'm one step behind you, and finally figured out what you were trying to do. I worked through the "Uniden numbers" and got the the same place. I confirmed that 1151 was the DSD channel number for L9-2, and then did a similar calculation for the other two CCs.

I'll go check these out in a couple of weeks. I think the 463.7625 could be a licensed frequency for Agilent. 487.925 is unlicensed.

1620165091880.png
 

ECPD279

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
792
Location
Bay Area, CA
No apologies required! We're collaborating and verifying each other's data. ;)


I'm in the south bay. You say you're in the North Bay. Could you look at some of the nearby Telepath / 268 systems to see if they are CON+?
TelePath Corporation (Connect Plus) Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies (radioreference.com)

Can you hear Site 13 - Twin Peaks, Site 14 - Mt. Tam, Site 15 - Mt. Diablo?
All of the Telepath sites I can hear from either home or work (1, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 24, 29, 33, 36, and 3) are still Con+
 
Top