Thinking Of Installing A Discone For My SDR Receivers

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Merovingian

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These are the best bet in my view for "want to hear it all on a budget but don't want the thing to fall apart the first time a good storm hits it". From a mechanical engineering perspective, they are solidly designed. I have used them for a while on multicouplers with good results. I know that they are less than ideal at 700 MHz (much of what I listen to), but a bit of negative gain (at horizon angle) is fine in my case...needing more signal on the 700 MHz LSM systems I monitor is not an issue and it would probably make matters worse.

Top notch approach there prcguy and I like that you carefully bargain-hunt.


Yes, you may be correct. I may go with diamond antennas. . . I'd like to have the awesome antennas that prcguy has but they seem to be very hard to find or very expensive or both. I think I will try to find one of the diplexers he uses though, they seem to be top notch.
 

prcguy

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A Discone is related to horn, wire V, and other antennas that launch a wave from an aperture, which is the apex of the disc and cone. The length of the cone rods determine its lower frequency range and original designs put the top hat diameter around .67 to .70 of the length of the cone. They are difficult and therefore expensive to make needing a machined hub to hold all the elements.


Oh, okay. I never knew the whip was a sales gimmick. So the horizontal rods receive the signal?

I understand a little better now why the two discones. From what I can tell a discone is just a fancy connector with rods at different angles, horizontal and a downward angle. I'm guessing its the length of the horizontal rods that determines the frequency range? Or is there some other special coils or circuitry built into the fancy connector? The ones you use seem to be very expensive, do you know what it is that makes them so expensive?

Thanks once again.
 

Merovingian

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A Discone is related to horn, wire V, and other antennas that launch a wave from an aperture, which is the apex of the disc and cone. The length of the cone rods determine its lower frequency range and original designs put the top hat diameter around .67 to .70 of the length of the cone. They are difficult and therefore expensive to make needing a machined hub to hold all the elements.


Ahhh. . . I see. I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought the horizontal rods and the lower angled rods made up the groundplane and the whip was the main element. I understand better now. If the cone rods determine it's lower frequency is it then that the horizontal shorter rods determine its higher frequencies?
 

questnz

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What sort of money one need to outlay for Kreco antenna ? Kreco
I am using Omni-X as a main scanner antenna, will Kreco improve anything in my case.
 

prcguy

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On a Discone, a vertically polarized wave is launched from the apex of the disc and cone. On the Radio Shack, Diamond and similar versions with a top whip, the whip is base loaded and tuned around 50Mhz. The base loading coil helps decouple the whip from the antenna at higher frequencies so the whip is less intrusive in the VHF/UHF range. Otherwise if you were to put a tuned VHF/UHF whip on a Discone that already covers VHF/UHF, it would cause problems.

For questnz that has an Omni-X, that antenna is tuned to some specific frequencies and probably operates similar to a tuned dipole at those specific frequencies. Although a couple of its dipoles are at a 45deg angle and that can have a slight degradation to signals that are perfectly vertical. For UHF it has very fat elements and would have some wide band width there. I do not own an Omni-X but I suspect it does a little better than a Discone within its resonant frequency range. Outside of that I would expect the Discone to work better.

Ahhh. . . I see. I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought the horizontal rods and the lower angled rods made up the groundplane and the whip was the main element. I understand better now. If the cone rods determine it's lower frequency is it then that the horizontal shorter rods determine its higher frequencies?
 

Merovingian

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On a Discone, a vertically polarized wave is launched from the apex of the disc and cone. On the Radio Shack, Diamond and similar versions with a top whip, the whip is base loaded and tuned around 50Mhz. The base loading coil helps decouple the whip from the antenna at higher frequencies so the whip is less intrusive in the VHF/UHF range. Otherwise if you were to put a tuned VHF/UHF whip on a Discone that already covers VHF/UHF, it would cause problems.

For questnz that has an Omni-X, that antenna is tuned to some specific frequencies and probably operates similar to a tuned dipole at those specific frequencies. Although a couple of its dipoles are at a 45deg angle and that can have a slight degradation to signals that are perfectly vertical. For UHF it has very fat elements and would have some wide band width there. I do not own an Omni-X but I suspect it does a little better than a Discone within its resonant frequency range. Outside of that I would expect the Discone to work better.


Thank you again prcguy, ka3jjz, TailGator911 and to everyone else who replied to my post. I received some good information. For now I'm going to sleep on this and think about it some more in the morning.

I forgot to mention that my SDRPlay RSPduo arrived today. Unfortunately I'm still a ways off from being able to use it.

The next thing to tackle after I decide on my antennas will be coax cable and lightning protection. I absolutely cannot have my desktop PC damaged by lightning at all, ever. I already have 5 layers of lightning protection on the cable modem through to my wireless router, I can't have my PC get zapped through my SDR radios because I stuck 3-4 big lightning rod up in the air.

The coax cable for the HF loop won't be so bad because I won't need that thick of a cable but the VHF and UHF cables will have to be pretty thick and I don't know if it is such a good idea to drill a 5/8" diameter hole in the floor to pull the cable in, I can get away with an RG6 sized hole but 1/2"-5/8" times 3-4 holes, yikes. Then I'll have to see how hard it is to crimp my own connectors on the cables. . . All of this equipment does seem to snowball doesn't it.
 

TailGator911

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My Diamond JN130 discone survived 9 - count 'em nine - direct hurricanes in Florida, and it is now perched on my mast in Ohio. The sturdiest toughest antenna I have ever seen. I had to replace one spine on it, and that's only because it got lost in the move.
 

ka3jjz

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Mero here is our database entry for Aiken. It appears that your area is covered by the Palmetto 800 trunk system, but you still have a good number of conventional frequencies. This database is built by members contributions, not FCC unloads.

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?ctid=2314

It appears that VHF lo really isn't used in your area, so unless you want to chase DX (yes, it's possible on VHF lo), it doesn't appear that you would need to cover that range all that well.

Mike
 

Merovingian

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Mero here is our database entry for Aiken. It appears that your area is covered by the Palmetto 800 trunk system, but you still have a good number of conventional frequencies. This database is built by members contributions, not FCC unloads.

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?ctid=2314

It appears that VHF lo really isn't used in your area, so unless you want to chase DX (yes, it's possible on VHF lo), it doesn't appear that you would need to cover that range all that well.

Mike


Oh, great! Thank you for the link. I'll take a look at it.

I was just thinking Augusta, GA is a 30 minute drive from where I live, I can probably pick up some of their transmissions also. I'll have to take a look at those frequencies as well.

Thank you very much!
 

prcguy

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About 10yrs ago the 100-800MHz version was about $350 US. Its probably more now. I have a real old one on my tower, a new one with porcelain insulator as a spare, and a black powder coated one made for Harris with Rexolite insulator.

I am a big fan of Kreco and also have several of their 1/4 wave ground planes in VHF and UHF in both brass and aluminum, a couple of their VHF coaxial dipoles in both brass and aluminum and several of their stacked coaxial colinears. One of the stacked colinears is new in the box and cut for railroad freqs. That would be a to die for antenna for the RR guys.....

What sort of money one need to outlay for Kreco antenna ? Kreco
I am using Omni-X as a main scanner antenna, will Kreco improve anything in my case.
 
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questnz

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Last I heard they are around $500.

Thank you everyone for enlightening me on this
Ouuuuch !!! this is a lots of $$$$ looks like my Omni-X need to stay with me bit longer yet., no complaints as it exceeded my expectations.
ps I use to have D130 for about 15-17 years, great antenna but I found the elements "hissing" in strong winds. As already advised here perhaps
I should remove top element. No such thing with Omni, despite slightly out of tuned frequencies/specification I am receiving perfect signal in 75.xxx range on Uniden scanners or RSP1A
 

KR7CQ

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I think if more people use a Diamond D3000 style Discone only up to 512MHz, then supplemented 700/800Mhz with a gain type antenna and a diplexer, the world would be a happier place.

I like your logic and will probably move that way this fall when we cool off again. Roof work in Phoenix isn't fun in the warm season. Curious to see the impact at the higher frequencies.
 

Ubbe

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The usual scanner/ham discone are designed for low SWR from 100MHz to 1000MHz. But as prcguy and others pointed out, at higher frequencies the directional loob tilts up in the sky and a discone that actually are made to cover 800Mhz have almost 10dB more gain at the horizon. But there's nothing that says that you cannot modify a standard discone to cover that frequency band. The military needs good working antennas and use small discones to cover upper UHF and those are made to last for decades and to almost survive a nuclear explosion, which makes them expensive and totally unneccesary for private use.

There's no noticable difference in performance between different discones if they have 8 or more legs, it's just metal in the air that receives the radiosignal and directly couples it to a coax, no mysteri or hokus pokus there with coils or transformers. I would say that a discone works well in a 1:3 range, 100MHz-300MHz. But why have good reception of the FM broadcast band that often overloads our scanners. Cut all elements down 20% to cover 120MHz-350Mhz and then take another discone, the smaller ones are cheaper, and cut the elements down to 1/3 of the original 100Mhz discones elements lenght. You then have one good 120MHz-350MHz discone and another good 350MHz-900MHz discone.

If you go to Mini-Circuits website and check into their lowpass and highpass filters you find both ready made inline filters with BNC connectors at about $40 each and SMD solder ones for $6 each and GPIOLabs website have circuit boards with connectors for those SMD components, two for $15. Low pass and high pass filters connects together using a standard T connector.

Mini-Circuits
Mini-Circuits

/Ubbe
 

Merovingian

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I thought those expensive antennas had some special circuits inside that made them work better than others, I guess it is just their nuclear explosion ruggedness that makes them so expensive. So, no, I don't need something that rugged.

Thank you. I hadn't thought of cutting down a discone to work at higher frequencies. I would need to know if I was doing it correctly, not cutting off too much or not cutting off enough. I would need something like this antenna analyzer:

KC901V 6.8GHz Handheld Network Analyzer RF multimeter | DEEPACE

I saw a great YouTube video about a cheaper one $130 but it's frequency range was limited but this one covers everything I would want. Unfortunately it is high $$$$, but it seems awesome! Has anyone used one of these? Anyone know something as good but cheaper?


The usual scanner/ham discone are designed for low SWR from 100MHz to 1000MHz. But as prcguy and others pointed out, at higher frequencies the directional loob tilts up in the sky and a discone that actually are made to cover 800Mhz have almost 10dB more gain at the horizon. But there's nothing that says that you cannot modify a standard discone to cover that frequency band. The military needs good working antennas and use small discones to cover upper UHF and those are made to last for decades and to almost survive a nuclear explosion, which makes them expensive and totally unneccesary for private use.

There's no noticable difference in performance between different discones if they have 8 or more legs, it's just metal in the air that receives the radiosignal and directly couples it to a coax, no mysteri or hokus pokus there with coils or transformers. I would say that a discone works well in a 1:3 range, 100MHz-300MHz. But why have good reception of the FM broadcast band that often overloads our scanners. Cut all elements down 20% to cover 120MHz-350Mhz and then take another discone, the smaller ones are cheaper, and cut the elements down to 1/3 of the original 100Mhz discones elements lenght. You then have one good 120MHz-350MHz discone and another good 350MHz-900MHz discone.

If you go to Mini-Circuits website and check into their lowpass and highpass filters you find both ready made inline filters with BNC connectors at about $40 each and SMD solder ones for $6 each and GPIOLabs website have circuit boards with connectors for those SMD components, two for $15. Low pass and high pass filters connects together using a standard T connector.

Mini-Circuits
Mini-Circuits

/Ubbe
 

iMONITOR

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I plan to let my B200 receive it's range of 70MHz-6GHz.

AOR makes a discone: DA6000 700-6000MHz for under $500 but do a little research as I don't think there is anything you can listen to much over 1.5GHz. You'll find it's almost all proprietary digital and/or encrypted from what I've been told. I don't monitor anything over 1GHz, I'm only 6'3". o_O
1556105089031.png
AOR DA6000 UHF Scanner Antenna
 

Merovingian

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Thanks for the info. You are probably right. I'm guessing some cell phone signals are above 1GHz, then a big jump to 2.4GHz for the area WiFi signals. Everything else is probably line of sight anyway.

That antenna looks heavy duty and also has a heavy duty price. For my needs I had probably better stick to sub $200 antennas if possible.


AOR makes a discone: DA6000 700-6000MHz for under $500 but do a little research as I don't think there is anything you can listen to much over 1.5GHz. You'll find it's almost all proprietary digital and/or encrypted from what I've been told. I don't monitor anything over 1GHz, I'm only 6'3". o_O
View attachment 70640
AOR DA6000 UHF Scanner Antenna
 

Merovingian

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then into a diplexer that has a port for 80 through 520MHz and another for 694MHz through 2.7GHz.


View attachment 70625


I have a brief question. If I can get a hold of a Microlab BK-24N diplexer, I see there is a frequency gap of 174MHz between the two inputs. Does that mean that if I were to tune to say 600 MHz I would hear nothing, assuming there was something there to hear, since 600 MHz falls in between 520 MHz and 694 MHz? Same with frequencies below 80 MHz. If I tuned to 60 MHz would I hear nothing as well?

Thanks
 

prcguy

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I haven't swept the Microlab diplexer yet but it will have a gap somewhere between 520 and 694Mhz. Reception at the edges of those frequencies would start to degrade and at some point maybe 550 to 664Mhz it would be dead. The only things within that frequency range would be digital TV and maybe some wireless microphones which I don't care about. Although I was doing some measurements on a local TV transmitter a few weeks back where we were running the power up and down and I was taking readings on my R-8600, but that was a one time thing.

I have a brief question. If I can get a hold of a Microlab BK-24N diplexer, I see there is a frequency gap of 174MHz between the two inputs. Does that mean that if I were to tune to say 600 MHz I would hear nothing, assuming there was something there to hear, since 600 MHz falls in between 520 MHz and 694 MHz? Same with frequencies below 80 MHz. If I tuned to 60 MHz would I hear nothing as well?

Thanks
 

Merovingian

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I haven't swept the Microlab diplexer yet but it will have a gap somewhere between 520 and 694Mhz. Reception at the edges of those frequencies would start to degrade and at some point maybe 550 to 664Mhz it would be dead. The only things within that frequency range would be digital TV and maybe some wireless microphones which I don't care about. Although I was doing some measurements on a local TV transmitter a few weeks back where we were running the power up and down and I was taking readings on my R-8600, but that was a one time thing.


Okay. I see. So its not exactly a sharp cut off then. Thanks.
 
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