Tornado In Tulsa?

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peterjmag

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The NWS as well as many media outlets are now saying an F1 tornado hit TIA as well as Rogers County. Why wasn't there a tornado warning issued NWS as well as a severe weather net TRO? I tuned in and heard nothing but the BAT net in a severe weather event! I even heard an operater reporting damage at 31st and Columbia during this BAT net with no one in the EOC to take the report? Parts of Tulsa and NE Oklahoma are getting hit with an F1 tornado and we have to listen to some hams talk about mowing their lawns on Saturday? What is the deal with Tulsa's skywarn? What a joke!


P.J. Maguire
 

rush2112ok

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I saw some tree up rooted yesterday in the Keetonville Area (W HWY 20) and (3) Power snap half way up. Looking at the Radar Data, (Stormlab) it indicate serveral Meso just after midnight.
 

CommShrek

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peterjmag said:
The NWS as well as many media outlets are now saying an F1 tornado hit TIA as well as Rogers County. Why wasn't there a tornado warning issued NWS as well as a severe weather net TRO? I tuned in and heard nothing but the BAT net in a severe weather event! I even heard an operater reporting damage at 31st and Columbia during this BAT net with no one in the EOC to take the report? Parts of Tulsa and NE Oklahoma are getting hit with an F1 tornado and we have to listen to some hams talk about mowing their lawns on Saturday? What is the deal with Tulsa's skywarn? What a joke!


P.J. Maguire

Maybe you should go post your question to TRO at www.tulsahamradio.org under the Weather/Storm Spotting section. You're still signed up there aren't you? If you heard the BAT net, then you were listening to the .94 repeater I take it? Was there any traffic on 443.850? That's where I listen for the weather net.

Oh, and speaking of listening, I don't think anyone forced you to listen to anything. If they want to talk about mowing lawns on Saturday, more power to them. It's their repeater, that they help fund, and that they use for their benefit. Are you a club member? Do you even have an amatuer radio license? You seem to have a lot of interest in what's happening in amateur radio in the area. Go get your license PJ and get involved.

Also, some of your comments should be aimed at TAEMA. Skywarn doesn't open the EOC, that's TAEMA. You also need to go visit www.okarkskywarn.org and read up on what Skywarn for the Tulsa area is all about. They will tell you up front that they are not an organization. A lot of people from the media, emergency management, and ham radio operators participate in the Skywarn program but it exists for a different reason than what I believe you're thinking of.

Sounds like the biggest weather event to hit is the blamestorming that's going on. :) Sounds like Skywarn might have to watch out for those types of storms as well.
 

peterjmag

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Twobravo said:
Maybe you should go post your question to TRO at www.tulsahamradio.org under the Weather/Storm Spotting section. You're still signed up there aren't you? If you heard the BAT net, then you were listening to the .94 repeater I take it? Was there any traffic on 443.850? That's where I listen for the weather net.

Oh, and speaking of listening, I don't think anyone forced you to listen to anything. If they want to talk about mowing lawns on Saturday, more power to them. It's their repeater, that they help fund, and that they use for their benefit. Are you a club member? Do you even have an amatuer radio license? You seem to have a lot of interest in what's happening in amateur radio in the area. Go get your license PJ and get involved.

Also, some of your comments should be aimed at TAEMA. Skywarn doesn't open the EOC, that's TAEMA. You also need to go visit www.okarkskywarn.org and read up on what Skywarn for the Tulsa area is all about. They will tell you up front that they are not an organization. A lot of people from the media, emergency management, and ham radio operators participate in the Skywarn program but it exists for a different reason than what I believe you're thinking of.

Sounds like the biggest weather event to hit is the blamestorming that's going on. :) Sounds like Skywarn might have to watch out for those types of storms as well.

Matt,
Your right, no one forced me to listen to skywarn. I choose to because it is 99.9 % of the time reliable and real time with dedicated people (TRO and TAEMA) who protect out community in times of crisis and severe weather. I am not trying to "blamestorm" and if it comes off that way I am sorry but, what happened was scary! I am just asking where was TAEMA and Skywarn? You wouldn't be accusing me of "blamestorming" if the same thing happened to Liberty Mounds and a tornadic storm damaged your property now would you? You would be asking the same questions, Why wasn't there a tornado warning? As for getting a ham ticket I have thought about it and would probably get one in the future just for storm spotting but what good is that if no one is there to take a report either in the NWS or TAEMA? I just prefer to listen with a scanner. What's wrong with that? Finally, I was in the process of posting the same info in the TRO forums and I did't need you doing it for me, I am fully capable of doing it myself, thank you.

P.J. Maguire
 

CommShrek

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peterjmag said:
Matt,
Your right, no one forced me to listen to skywarn. I choose to because it is 99.9 % of the time reliable and real time with dedicated people (TRO and TAEMA) who protect out community in times of crisis and severe weather. I am not trying to "blamestorm" and if it comes off that way I am sorry but, what happened was scary! I am just asking where was TAEMA and Skywarn? You wouldn't be accusing me of "blamestorming" if the same thing happened to Liberty Mounds and a tornadic storm damaged your property now would you? You would be asking the same questions, Why wasn't there a tornado warning? As for getting a ham ticket I have thought about it and would probably get one in the future just for storm spotting but what good is that if no one is there to take a report either in the NWS or TAEMA? I just prefer to listen with a scanner. What's wrong with that? Finally, I was in the process of posting the same info in the TRO forums and I did't need you doing it for me, I am fully capable of doing it myself, thank you.

P.J. Maguire

I agree, the weather nets are very reliable and do have very good, even excellent information available to listeners during a severe weather event. I didn't see you asking about TAEMA though. I don't even see TAEMA mentioned in your original post. I saw Skywarn, and as a participant in Skywarn (you could be too if you wanted) I thought I'd respond.

A better question you could have asked is something like "Where was TAEMA and the NWS?" rather than "What's the deal with Skywarn, what a joke." Maybe the event was scary to you but I don't know why you called Skywarn a joke.

Just so you know, the Town of Liberty's Emergency Management was monitoring that storm, at no time did the NWS say it was tornadic, I sure as heck didn't see anything that would indciate that. We use OK-FIRST, WeatherTap, HAM radio, NWS, spotters in the field, and more. None of those sources indicated a tornadic event.

We could "what if" anything. However, if God forbid, something did happen to my house, I still wouldn't call Skywarn a joke or hold them responsible for life or property damage in my area. So to answer your question, YES, I'd still call it blamestorming as long as you're still pointing the finger at Skywarn. If however, you made a simple error and blamed Skywarn by ignorance because you didn't know exactly what some groups do, and what different agencies do, then I could possibly understand that. If a tornado warning wasn't issued and my place was damaged (assuming the storm showed signs of being tornadic but remember, the storm we are talking didn't appear tornadic) then I might ask the NWS a question or two. I wouldn't ask Skywarn though. They operate under the direction of the NWS in Tulsa. See what I'm getting at?

There is much more to HAM radio than storm spotting. We should talk about that over at TRO though as to not take this thread any further off topic.

I'm off to TRO next to see if you gained any insight over there. Later.
 
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KD5RJZ

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Why don't you guys get a license and voice your opinion on the air. The BAT Net is every Saturday at 11:00PM on the 146.94 and 444.1 repeaters in Tulsa. The Net always pauses or ends for emergency traffic, but there wasn't any. If you guys need to report something, once again get a license and report it, we would love to have your reports, or check in to the Non-ham weather net on 27.185Mhz (AM).

Thanks,

Mike Darrol KD5RJZ
444.1 Site Chairman & Skywarn Net Controller
 

KD5WLX

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What Skywarn is and isn't -

At the national level, Skywarn is a "co-op" between the ARRL (national organization for amateur radio), NWS, and other agencies. ARRL "agrees" to provide volunteer trained spotters to provide direct reports to the local NWS offices, and NCOs at the ham desks in each NWS office (that has one). NWS agrees to provide the training for those spotters. There is more to it, but if you meet the qualifications, you get to use the official Skywarn logo.

At the local level, OkArkSkywarn is the "local chapter" of the Skywarn "club". They have regular meetings, where the spotters, NCOs, and NWS meteorologists get together and figure out ways to better do their jobs - that would be the NWS's job - of keeping the public forewarned of impending or occurring dangerous weather. They do fundraisers to pay for their webpage (that is designed to keep the spotters informed of training activities and such, and to provide a way for us to keep in touch with each other). They also support the local clubs - since they use the club's repeaters during weather events.

NONE of this has any direct bearing on an ACTUAL ONGOING weather event, though. THAT call is the NWS meteorologist, IF he sees an unstable situation (supercells could form) or ongoing situation (supercells are moving into the area) to CALL the on-call NCO. When they predict severe weather, the NCOs provide their availability, the coordinator puts together a schedule, and the meteorologist calls whoever's name is on the list for that time slot. At that time, the NCO must respond TO the NWS office and then start a weather net. At the same time, spotters are normally monitoring the weather (if an event is predicted) and will also head out to spot.

WHAT HAPPENED SAT. Night:
the squall line was "linear" in nature. It did NOT have a history of mesos - it was a straight line wind/heavy rain/lightning event. It was also moving into an area of MORE stable air, so what potential it did have was predicted to decrease, especially with the loss of daytime heating after sunset and the fact that it was moving into an area with a stronger cap. The decrease in potential favorable conditions for meso formation led the NWS to drop their predictions of severe weather. Because they dropped their predictions, the NCOs and spotters "stood down".

Then the storm pulled a fast one on us! I haven't seen the official reports, but IF (not saying there wasn't, just that I haven't seen the reports) a tornado is was small, weak (F1) and localized. Much of the damage was more likely microbursts or downdrafts from collapsing cells.

This cell blew up, went meso, then collapsed all within a few minutes and a few miles, w/o much in the way of indicators that it had the potential to do so - let alone indicators that it WOULD.

IF the NWS had seen it developing sooner, they could have called a net. IF they had called an NCO immediately, we could have gotten a net on the air - provided the NCO they called lived close by. BUT - this one happened so fast, the event was over before they could even issue a warning, let alone get a Skywarn net on the air. If they had called me or Mike when the cell started forming, we would have been "chasing" it across town to get to the NWS (we both live west of where it blew up) - so despite being <15 minutes from the NWS office, the event would have been over before we could get there.

They still COULD have called a warning, that would have clued in the media (who also weren't doing more than putting the radar in the corner of the screen except on commercial breaks) and any spotters who were up/listening or anyone with a weather radio. I don't know why they didn't, but I suspect the reason was that it just didn't look bad, and didn't look like it was going to get worse.

So, NWS got surprised. It happens. That's why we have a multi-billion $ a year federal agency to predict the weather - because it is UNPREDICTABLE. That's also why we (ARRL, Skywarn, NWS, local media, others) tell people to stay alert to changing weather conditions EVEN if no severe weather is predicted.

As far as TAEMA and taking damage reports goes - TAEMA is not manned 24x7 as far as I know, and even when it is manned not everyone there is a ham, so even if they're there and have the radio on, they may not be able to acknowledge a report. In other words, they work just like the NWS when there is no net going - they may notice, they may be actively monitoring, or they may not. If a major event happens, they get "called up". But if they're "surprised" it will take them a few to get on scene, get organized, and get up to speed.

As far as the repeaters go - I can tell you (I know Mike will agree) that ANY local ham repeater will IMMEDIATELY be made available for emergency communications for ANY need. All you have to do is ask. However, if no one asks, know one knows. NWS didn't predict, thus didn't ask. TAEMA wasn't expecting anything, so they weren't activated. So they didn't ask.

If an individual spotter was up "watching the light show" (I was up watching my antennas sway, and wondering if they were going to stay up!) sees something, they will likely note it, and probably attempt to report it. If NWS doesn't respond to the radio, there's always the phone. I'll admit I didn't - I had 40mph straight line winds, no hail, little rain (1/2" total, but not all with the squall line) except for one huge burst that lasted all of 30 seconds. Since that's what was predicted and none of it meets the criteria for a report, once it passed my place I went back to bed.
 

CommShrek

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Very good posts by both Mike and Jay. I'm glad you guys stopped by to do a little public education. Much appreciated.
 

OkRob

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I did hear that they confirmed it was a very short lived F1, traveling 4/10ths of a mile. Those storms were very fast moving, so the whole event likely lasted less than 1 minute. I haven't heard for sure, but are they putting this one into the gust-nado category? Sounds like that's what it was to me. Very difficult to impossible to issue a tornado warning on those. I don't think NWS failed us in the least. There was a red box out for the area and they have long put in their thunderstorm warning that tornadoes can and do occur with little to no advanced warning on storms like that. I was a net controller at NWS quite a few years back, and I know how diligent those guys are. They're not going to let one sneak up on us if they can help it. They do a remarkable job. That one was just one of those that happened so fast and unexpectedly that nothing could be done.

BTW Twobravo, apparently the surgery today was a success. The Dr was very pleased the wife said. I'm still pretty goofy from the anesthesia but I think they did good. :) Later all....

Rob
 

CommShrek

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OkRob said:
BTW Twobravo, apparently the surgery today was a success. The Dr was very pleased the wife said. I'm still pretty goofy from the anesthesia but I think they did good. :) Later all....

Rob

Well good. Glad the surgery was a success. I am tempted to make a comment about the anesthesia and the goofiness but I'll refrain. :)
 
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