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TriSquare TSX300
- Thread starter JLAB
- Start date
- Status
RadioDaze
Member
I think most of what's been going on in this thread is a semantics problem.
All encrypted radios are secure.
Not all secure radios are encrypted.
All current radios using encryption employ "digital technologies".
Not all radios employing "digital technologies" use encryption.
"Digital technologies" is a fairly broad statement, not necessarily meaning that the radio is "digital" per se. And even a digital radio (APCO-25) commonly operates in non-encrypted mode.
Today's frequency-hopping radios use "digital technology" (computer logic) to accomplish that task.
A frequency-hopping radio is more secure (harder to monitor) than one that does not frequency-hop.
Secure is a relative term, not a superlative.
Nowhere in Tri-Square's marketing do they state that their radios are encrypted.
Read this carefully-worded statement from their website:
"Frequency hopping makes it nearly impossible to listen in to a conversation."
Pay close attention to the word "nearly".
All encrypted radios are secure.
Not all secure radios are encrypted.
All current radios using encryption employ "digital technologies".
Not all radios employing "digital technologies" use encryption.
"Digital technologies" is a fairly broad statement, not necessarily meaning that the radio is "digital" per se. And even a digital radio (APCO-25) commonly operates in non-encrypted mode.
Today's frequency-hopping radios use "digital technology" (computer logic) to accomplish that task.
A frequency-hopping radio is more secure (harder to monitor) than one that does not frequency-hop.
Secure is a relative term, not a superlative.
Nowhere in Tri-Square's marketing do they state that their radios are encrypted.
Read this carefully-worded statement from their website:
"Frequency hopping makes it nearly impossible to listen in to a conversation."
Pay close attention to the word "nearly".
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RayAir
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
- Messages
- 1,947
As far as the "10 billion channels" claim, that's a little misleading too. All eXRS radios use 700 different frequencies. Each channel, no matter what channel you select, has 50 frequencies designated to use to hop on. Different channels have different hop sets pre-programmed. So say channel 1 used the same 50 frequencies as channel 100, they would have a different hop sequence so they wouldn't interfere.
So theoretically if someone wanted to take all 700 eXRS frequencies and program them into a few fast scanning scanners then they could listen to these radios from quite a distance away given the hopping is relatively slow at 400mS. If they were numerous users I could see running into interference problems unless you knew the 50 hop-set frequencies being used by the channel.
I have had some mixed results using one scanner. I took a freq. counter in slow gate for eXRS channel 0 and wrote down some of the frequencies it indicated. I then programmed them into a scanner and was able to get pieces of test conversations. I am sure if I found all 50 channels and used 2 or more scanners the results would improve.
Either an Opto Interceptor (discontinued) or an Opto Explorer will hearth audio from the eXRS radios. Using an 800/900MHz gain antenna or external mag mount etc will improve reception distance. If you could attenuate all the frequencies except the 900 band and use an external antenna then I'm sure results would be excellent.
Of course in most cases it isn't worth the trouble to even try to listen to these radios. I have just done some testing, but if my local police were using them for surveillance or something then I might step up my monitoring efforts.
TriSquare eXRS: analog NFM, 400mS hop rate; 700 frequencies; 50 frequencies per channel
Total of 2B unique hop-sets.
Motorola DTR: digital VSELP, 90mS hop rate; 50 frequencies per channel; unknown total freq's
Up to 10 public channels, can do private channels by setting unique 11-digit I.D's
Nextel Direct Talk: same as DTR except not compatible with DTR
10 channels, 15 codes per channel; can do private channels by entering the number of the phone you are calling on DT or selecting from contacts.
*** If you were a tester for the eXRS why don't you call them up and ask them why they say their analog radios are "digital"? I'd like to hear their answer.
Comsec
Secure communications are possible by the implementation of one use keys with high entropy content, and/or by quantum communications technology.
Secure is a spectrum of concern; how hardened is the COMSEC against listeners? Again this is a spectrum as well.
Three letter agencies to anyone with a radio is the spectrum of concern for COMSEC of TSX-300 type radios.
xRS radios utilize slightly time compressed narow band FM that is frequency agile. Any modern mil intercept receiver can analyze and follow comms from these units. If you have the ability to steer a receiver from a counter, then in the near field these radios are monitorable, no matter how hard you try to secure them by the front panel changes. The hop rate is slow and hopset limited to 50 channel's out of ~700. You can change a key on every transmission and steered interception will still defeat their COMSEC.
Now, they do provide protection from intercept from all but the most technically adept "adversaries" as a practical matter?
For $40 a radio, they are a bargain and have a reasonably low POI .
Are they secure? It depends on what you are talking about!
Ø craig Ø
Secure communications are possible by the implementation of one use keys with high entropy content, and/or by quantum communications technology.
Secure is a spectrum of concern; how hardened is the COMSEC against listeners? Again this is a spectrum as well.
Three letter agencies to anyone with a radio is the spectrum of concern for COMSEC of TSX-300 type radios.
xRS radios utilize slightly time compressed narow band FM that is frequency agile. Any modern mil intercept receiver can analyze and follow comms from these units. If you have the ability to steer a receiver from a counter, then in the near field these radios are monitorable, no matter how hard you try to secure them by the front panel changes. The hop rate is slow and hopset limited to 50 channel's out of ~700. You can change a key on every transmission and steered interception will still defeat their COMSEC.
Now, they do provide protection from intercept from all but the most technically adept "adversaries" as a practical matter?
For $40 a radio, they are a bargain and have a reasonably low POI .
Are they secure? It depends on what you are talking about!
Ø craig Ø
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SkipSanders
Silent Key
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Messages
- 1,059
'Digital' is very umm, creatively... used by Marketingspeak.
Used to be you could (and probably still can) find 900 MHz portable phones advertised as 'digital'... of course, they were pure, simple analog FM, but you see... they required a 'digital' datableep from the portable to pick up the line, so they had 'digital security'. Maybe from someone else USING your phone line, but no security at all from someone LISTENING to you.
Used to be you could (and probably still can) find 900 MHz portable phones advertised as 'digital'... of course, they were pure, simple analog FM, but you see... they required a 'digital' datableep from the portable to pick up the line, so they had 'digital security'. Maybe from someone else USING your phone line, but no security at all from someone LISTENING to you.
an39511
Member
TriSquare TSX300 frequency hopping
I bought 4 TSX300 radios and all the batteries are dead and won't hold a charge. I am using plain AA batteries but all my radios are loosing sync, or taking 4-5 seconds for the receiving radios to hear. I even left them on the default channel 0 when testing them. The radios have good range they just loose sync. I tested them at two different locations figuring I had some kind of interference. Was there a bad batch of these radios? They couldn't be as bad as what I experience without getting sued.
I bought 4 TSX300 radios and all the batteries are dead and won't hold a charge. I am using plain AA batteries but all my radios are loosing sync, or taking 4-5 seconds for the receiving radios to hear. I even left them on the default channel 0 when testing them. The radios have good range they just loose sync. I tested them at two different locations figuring I had some kind of interference. Was there a bad batch of these radios? They couldn't be as bad as what I experience without getting sued.
W9NES
Member
If you bought(4) radios and you have the paid receipt you can take or send them back for a replacement or a cash refund.I would contact the company direct and let them know.If your batteries are dead are you using the correct charger that came with the radios.You need the charge the radios overnight in the drop in charger and then check the battery indicator.
an39511
Member
I am using the charger base supplied with the radios and had them on charge for 16 hours. The batteries are warm to the touch like most rechargeable but they only put out about 2 volts. I find it difficult to accept that these radios are as bad as they are, even if they do replace the defective batteries.
How does this work?
Exactly how will this function as a walkie talkie without paying for service?
What would I do to set these up to work with out service?
Exactly how will this function as a walkie talkie without paying for service?
What would I do to set these up to work with out service?
rescuecomm
Member
All you need are the I355s and a blank Sim card purchased off of the web for each one. The radios will be used in direct talk mode which is radio to radio. It uses the 900 mhz ISM band which is in the same spectrum as the TriSquare TSX and the Motorola DTRs. The I355 units have 0.6 watts and have about the same range as a GMRS radio. The DTRs and the TSX units have 1 watt output as a comparison. I have four of the I355 units that I got on the web for about 22 dollars appiece including the blank SIm card. I also got the I325 type external antennas to use on mine to slightly increase the range.
Bob
Bob
RayAir
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
- Messages
- 1,947
Good info.
I put the i355's in DT mode up against my Motorola DTR's (gen 2) and the DTR got about 100 more feet of range in a mobile to base set up. Mobile meaning car and base meaning the second floor of my house. Total distance was 1.3 miles. There wasn't any appreciable range increase with the slightly higher powered DTR.
I have got about 1-2 miles range on them in open area, on edge of a city before. The were clear, no bothersome kids like the days of FRS/GMRS. There are so many channels its amazing lol. Chance of someone finding your "private channel" would be probably rare. The neat feature is the ability to send text messages back and forth with the higher grade radio.
TSX100 & Motorola DTR650
I am a commercial two way radio dealer. I sell the DTR650, and actually carry 3 in my car at all times for demo because they demo so good. I also own 2 TSX100 that I use shopping and on my cruise's with my wife. I am not taking the DTR's on a cruise. You can't compare these radios. It's like comparing a VW and a RR; they are both cars but they are both worlds apart. They are both digital, but the DTR has such a far superior receiver and audio circuit that it sounds like a digital radio should like. The TSX is consumer grade and the DTR is commercial grade, simply put. They both work exactly within their price range and are both worth their money.
I am a commercial two way radio dealer. I sell the DTR650, and actually carry 3 in my car at all times for demo because they demo so good. I also own 2 TSX100 that I use shopping and on my cruise's with my wife. I am not taking the DTR's on a cruise. You can't compare these radios. It's like comparing a VW and a RR; they are both cars but they are both worlds apart. They are both digital, but the DTR has such a far superior receiver and audio circuit that it sounds like a digital radio should like. The TSX is consumer grade and the DTR is commercial grade, simply put. They both work exactly within their price range and are both worth their money.
East_Algoma
Member
Excellent CRYPTO GMRS-FRS Radio - UNIDEN 2089 CK
Doesnt sound like Voice Inversion....BEST 59.99 I spent on a GMRS Radio
Doesnt sound like Voice Inversion....BEST 59.99 I spent on a GMRS Radio
JPSan
Member
Hang on to them...I thought the FCC nail Uniden over these...check out the FCC document about them...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-2374A1.pdf
East_Algoma
Member
Maybe so...I dunno...I live in Canada...we have no GMRS or FRS lic to worry about, then again we cant use repeaters...tho many run em anyways....
I did record the output of the Uniden radio...if youu wish I can email you the sound it makes when in Crypto mode...
lemme know
I did record the output of the Uniden radio...if youu wish I can email you the sound it makes when in Crypto mode...
lemme know
Well, no frs/gmrs radio has *encryption* They do, or did have "inversion scrambling". Very rudimentary form of speech security. Both Midland and Uniden offered this, until both companies were fined.
eXRS, as we all know is much more private, especially with 10 billion "virtual channels". I prefer them to any other personal radio. They are reliable and effective. I've never had a set lose synch (knowingly). I've had a set work over 10 hours with the supplied packs. True, out of the 10 hours, they may havew had only a few minutes actual transmit time.. the rest being turned on and in standby.
eXRS, as we all know is much more private, especially with 10 billion "virtual channels". I prefer them to any other personal radio. They are reliable and effective. I've never had a set lose synch (knowingly). I've had a set work over 10 hours with the supplied packs. True, out of the 10 hours, they may havew had only a few minutes actual transmit time.. the rest being turned on and in standby.
I guess the bottom line is they work darn good for $71.00 a pair PP from Amazon. The range is about the same as GMRS radios, they are basically 99.9% secure.
If someone wants to go to the trouble of following me around with a Opto Explorer everywhere I go, let them.
I live in a rural area and if I see someone following me everywhere I go while talking on my 300's, we are going to have a little "Jesus come to meeting moment".
I experience no interfearence, if I go to a big race or other event, the people with the GMRS radios are having a terrable time talking because everyone is walking all over them. Should the other person not be able to hear me due to too much noise, I can always text them.
I can't think of anyplace you can find a set of radios with the features of the Trisquare radios for such a low price, they flat work. Lastly, they are compact, have little stubby antennas, the clip sucks, buy a belt holder and better earphones if you want them, use Vox if desired and you have the ideal radio within their limits.
I live in a fairly flat valley, it goes from higher on two sides of the valley where mountains are and has scattered homes, I have talked as far as 5+ miles and talk with a friend at 3.5 miles as the crow flies all of the time, clear as can be, no noise like the GMRS when they get near their limits.
I don't care if they are analog or digital or anything else being commented on, I think they are the best deal for line of sight communications out there.
Are there better, sure, if you want to spend many times what the TC 300's cost.
If you are using them for some illegal activity or something highly classified, then maybe someone will go to the trouble of trying to stay close enough to you with a near field scanner, but for 99.99% of uses, nobody is going to hear your conversation, I like that along with the clear audio and not having to listen to routy kids playing with GMRS or tring to find a channel where you can talk at a major event.
I spent about $22.00 and got their accessory kit with another charger, 2 batteries and two earphones, I got a 12 V cord for less than $10.00. Now I have all these extras for about the price people are selling two batteries for, one charger for the house, one in my truck. I always have an extra stock battery and can put in AA's if necessary.
The carry case at $12.00 is nice also.
So one can argue all the fine points, but these work fantastic and have great privacy and no interfearence, I don't use my GMRS. I bought the TS 300's right after getting Midland GMRS radios (good bubble packs) so I never bothered to send the Government $85.00, something that ticks me off to no end.
I only use the TS radios and keep a GMRS for emergencys when I might not have cell service and hope someone hears me.
The quality GMRS radios are darn nice, but the idiots with the bubble pack radios are hurting those who wish to use the band as it should be. I think it's going to turn into another CB frequency and I hate to see this. A lot of bubble packs are being sold, at $40.00 and under, just about everyone seems to have a set. Some areas have much more use than others, but they are a problem. My friends have all got a set, we can talk to everyone or I can just talk to one person in the group, something you cannot do with bubble packs.
I hold no ham licenses, am just getting interested in radio again, but if I get my ticket and I intend to, I won't be geting a GMRS ticket, I'll go for a band with people who follow the rules for the most part.
My Best, John
If someone wants to go to the trouble of following me around with a Opto Explorer everywhere I go, let them.
I live in a rural area and if I see someone following me everywhere I go while talking on my 300's, we are going to have a little "Jesus come to meeting moment".
I experience no interfearence, if I go to a big race or other event, the people with the GMRS radios are having a terrable time talking because everyone is walking all over them. Should the other person not be able to hear me due to too much noise, I can always text them.
I can't think of anyplace you can find a set of radios with the features of the Trisquare radios for such a low price, they flat work. Lastly, they are compact, have little stubby antennas, the clip sucks, buy a belt holder and better earphones if you want them, use Vox if desired and you have the ideal radio within their limits.
I live in a fairly flat valley, it goes from higher on two sides of the valley where mountains are and has scattered homes, I have talked as far as 5+ miles and talk with a friend at 3.5 miles as the crow flies all of the time, clear as can be, no noise like the GMRS when they get near their limits.
I don't care if they are analog or digital or anything else being commented on, I think they are the best deal for line of sight communications out there.
Are there better, sure, if you want to spend many times what the TC 300's cost.
If you are using them for some illegal activity or something highly classified, then maybe someone will go to the trouble of trying to stay close enough to you with a near field scanner, but for 99.99% of uses, nobody is going to hear your conversation, I like that along with the clear audio and not having to listen to routy kids playing with GMRS or tring to find a channel where you can talk at a major event.
I spent about $22.00 and got their accessory kit with another charger, 2 batteries and two earphones, I got a 12 V cord for less than $10.00. Now I have all these extras for about the price people are selling two batteries for, one charger for the house, one in my truck. I always have an extra stock battery and can put in AA's if necessary.
The carry case at $12.00 is nice also.
So one can argue all the fine points, but these work fantastic and have great privacy and no interfearence, I don't use my GMRS. I bought the TS 300's right after getting Midland GMRS radios (good bubble packs) so I never bothered to send the Government $85.00, something that ticks me off to no end.
I only use the TS radios and keep a GMRS for emergencys when I might not have cell service and hope someone hears me.
The quality GMRS radios are darn nice, but the idiots with the bubble pack radios are hurting those who wish to use the band as it should be. I think it's going to turn into another CB frequency and I hate to see this. A lot of bubble packs are being sold, at $40.00 and under, just about everyone seems to have a set. Some areas have much more use than others, but they are a problem. My friends have all got a set, we can talk to everyone or I can just talk to one person in the group, something you cannot do with bubble packs.
I hold no ham licenses, am just getting interested in radio again, but if I get my ticket and I intend to, I won't be geting a GMRS ticket, I'll go for a band with people who follow the rules for the most part.
My Best, John
One last thing, the Trisquare radios work far better with the supplied battery packs than they do with 4 AA batteries.
The battery pack is 6 volts, 4 rechargable batteries at 1.2 volts, well you do the math, the radios work best at full voltage.
The other advantage over bubble pack GMRS is that when the battery starts to get low on a GMRS, they switch from 5 watts to 1/4 watt on their own and there is no way to change this. With the Trisquare, you may loose some range, but not as much as with the GMRS.
The text message is also handy when in very noisy places such as car races, put the radios on vibrate and never miss a message from the sender.
These are not professional grade radios, but for the price, they do so much that everyone should have at least one set. You will find uses for them.
Even when I'm not using them, my 5 year old grandaughter loves them, she can talk with her friend and not interfear with anyone like a GMRS radio will do and the kids always go for the higher power channels.
Within their design limitations, they are great. If you get some, get the accessory pack on Amazon for $23.00, you get an extra AC charger, 2 sets of batteries and two more cheap ear pieces for less than you can buy 2 batteries for. Get the car charger attachment for $8.00 and you can have a charging station in your home and another in your vehicle. This way you always have a fully charged battery to use and can charge the other while driving.
I've talked 3 miles with the radio next to my open car window while driving to a person standing on their front porch in a fairly open area, they do work within their design limits.
My Best, John
The battery pack is 6 volts, 4 rechargable batteries at 1.2 volts, well you do the math, the radios work best at full voltage.
The other advantage over bubble pack GMRS is that when the battery starts to get low on a GMRS, they switch from 5 watts to 1/4 watt on their own and there is no way to change this. With the Trisquare, you may loose some range, but not as much as with the GMRS.
The text message is also handy when in very noisy places such as car races, put the radios on vibrate and never miss a message from the sender.
These are not professional grade radios, but for the price, they do so much that everyone should have at least one set. You will find uses for them.
Even when I'm not using them, my 5 year old grandaughter loves them, she can talk with her friend and not interfear with anyone like a GMRS radio will do and the kids always go for the higher power channels.
Within their design limitations, they are great. If you get some, get the accessory pack on Amazon for $23.00, you get an extra AC charger, 2 sets of batteries and two more cheap ear pieces for less than you can buy 2 batteries for. Get the car charger attachment for $8.00 and you can have a charging station in your home and another in your vehicle. This way you always have a fully charged battery to use and can charge the other while driving.
I've talked 3 miles with the radio next to my open car window while driving to a person standing on their front porch in a fairly open area, they do work within their design limits.
My Best, John
N1SQB
Member
I picked up the Radio Shack (Uniden made) version of these radios (21-1936A) when they went on clearance. I was going to deep-6 them recently but when I turned them on to see if they worked, low and behold, the "scrm" words on the display shocked me. I bought them for my kids when they were younger and never really got much use. I never realized they had this feature. (channels 8-14 only and low power) I'm keeing them just for the heck of it now. Not true encryption but they are fun to play with. I can imagine other people who listen in to these bands wondering what the heck is going on and what they are missing out on. Just me and the wife talking around our property. LOL......Lots of secure comms.....:roll:
Here is what they look like just for reference:
http://www.amazon.com/Remanufacture...-Walkie/dp/tech-data/B003KPIOUA/ref=de_a_smtd
Manny
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