As others have said, this is good info but not all encompassing. On a nearby mountain it shows only 1 site (Gov only) when in fact there are 2 sites about 1/8 mile apart. One being FS radio only site the other is a Homeland Security only radio site. Maybe, because the one not listed but can be seen on the imagery map and being a HS site, it isn't listed. Just a guess. As there is another mountain what has several sites on it and it shows them all.
U.S. Forest Service Electronic Site Map
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ecps92
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Wondering if [since this was found in the public domain] that it is sites where you can Commercially rent access from the USFS, which explains why many known Repeater sites [which maybe Gov't Only sites] are missing
Does the FS-only site show up or the HS site? I'm wondering if it's a forest service only site, if they need a special use permit for themselves? It looks like this map might be for special use permits for electronic sites, which might preclude the USFS-only sites. Looking at data near me, I see one site missing that I know is USFS only, very light impact to the land. Another site is USFS only, but includes Air Guard remote base, and amateur has a small cinder block shed and telephone pole on site, it shows up. A couple other USFS-only sites, include some fire lookouts aren't showing.
The one that shows up is the USFS site.
Paysonscanner
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Paysonscanner's dad here. No the Forest Service (note that capital letters are used - it's a formal entity) does not need a special use permit from themselves. During my engineering days I had access to a list of NTIA authorizations for all federal agencies, not including the FBI, Secret Service and some military uses. The other federal agencies are often authorized with Memorandums of Agreement or Memos of Understanding. Every special use permit file had a form of the listed RF emissions that were in the permit - but not for the FBI and similar. When existing permittees proposed a change or a new lot was permitted at the site, the USFS had a form that went out to everyone at the site. It was like a frequency coordination done by APCO.
There are hundreds of USFS repeaters where other users are not permitted. Lookouts are one of them, scenic mountain peaks are another. The USFS is very careful about scenic values and makes compromises (that can reduce ERP) with building sizing, shape, color and antenna height and size. They don't want to have antenna farms sprout up everywhere. They don't want new roads and electric service corridors. More to the point, the public does not want them either. That is why accepted electronic sites have to be authorized by the Regional Forester level and in a Forest Plan that has a large public input process. Once the site has the approval and engineers prepare a survey and plat, District Rangers can issue the permits on a lot by lot manner, an action with NEPA exclusions, so the process is quite quick. Or it used to be when ranger districts had better staffing than now and you didn't have 2 Ranger Districts for a 2.5 million acre forest.
NEPA = National Environmental Policy Act. Is central to everything the agency does.
Paysonscanner
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I retired 30 plus years ago. I'm not sure if what I stated is current policy. I don't think the NTIA was involved in authorizing each repeater location, that is really a land management issue, not a radio issue. They did maintain a list at one point. I think the list is on a CD now, with tight access to them. Currently, if the USFS wants to put up a new repeater at a new USFS only site an Environmental Assessment (lower level than the Environmental Impact Statement) has to be prepared. A public comment period and appeal of decision period is involved.
At lookouts, where a disturbance has already been made, the environmental (NEPA) process is abbreviated when a new repeater is placed there. In some cases the lookout structure hasn't been used (for its original purpose) in decades, but concrete structures are already there or easily added, so they keep the building to attach antennas to. Sometimes special use permits are authorized for other users who may share the structure. I'm not sure if other agency and commercial uses can be added as they are at Regional Forester authorized sites.
At lookouts, where a disturbance has already been made, the environmental (NEPA) process is abbreviated when a new repeater is placed there. In some cases the lookout structure hasn't been used (for its original purpose) in decades, but concrete structures are already there or easily added, so they keep the building to attach antennas to. Sometimes special use permits are authorized for other users who may share the structure. I'm not sure if other agency and commercial uses can be added as they are at Regional Forester authorized sites.
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ColoradoRedlands
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Hi Paysonscanner
Here is a question you might know the answer to.
Are the USFS LEO's assigned to the Forest itself, or to a Ranger District? Maybe it depends on the forest.
Also similar question about BLM LEO's, are they assigned to the Regional Offices, or the individual Field Offices?
Here is a question you might know the answer to.
Are the USFS LEO's assigned to the Forest itself, or to a Ranger District? Maybe it depends on the forest.
Also similar question about BLM LEO's, are they assigned to the Regional Offices, or the individual Field Offices?
Paysonscanner
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Daddy has kept up on this up to a number of years ago. Due to interference from District Rangers and Forest Supervisors for a couple of decades and more, sometime in the 1990's the USFS Law Enforcement and Investigations was removed from supervision by the Regional Foresters, DR's and FS's. The head of the LE&I reports directly to the Chief. As he understands it LEO's and special agents are assigned to Forests and Ranger District for work locations, as well as regional offices and answer to areas (groups of national forests) as in California and sometimes to zones, which correspond to Arizona and New Mexico in the USFS Region 3. Daddy says he hasn't checked in on that in about 15 years so they might have a different organization, but they still don't report to the DR's and FS's. As far as I know the duty locations for most LEO's is the ranger district. Patrol captains have forest supervisor's offices as their duty location.
At one time it was common for Forest Supervisors, District Rangers and primary staff (on both SO's and RD's) to pull citations that LEO's and FPO's (Forest Protection Officers - unarmed) and write the federal magistrates directly telling them citations were null and void. They did so due to cronyism, violators importance in local communities and actually being anti law enforcement. When the LEO's were taken away from line and staff they screamed like monkey's getting castrated, but they had made the move necessary. Note: I toned down Daddy's language on this subject, he is all for better law enforcement in natural resource agencies.
ColoradoRedlands
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Thanks for the entire answer Paysonscanner. I think I probably phrased the question at bit odd, since I was thinking more about what territories the LEOs had vs who they answer to.
As per your answer, up here in Western Colorado it does appear that the USFS LEO's do seem to work a Ranger District. We also have BLM LEOs and its a little harder to tell what level they work since some of the Field Offices are co-located with a District Office.
We have a rather extensive State Public Service Trunk System here in Colorado. Both the BLM and the USFS LEO's use this system and check-in with the State Patrol Dispatcher for their geographic area. All are also equipped to talk with local Sheriff's dispatchers as well when needed.
I don't hear USFS or BLM using the Interagency Fire Dispatch centers, but they do occasionally use fed simplex channels to talk to each other and with rural area Sheriff's deputies.
Up here USFS LEO's use "Forest Service xxxx" ID's on the state system. The 4-digit number doesnt seem to be in any sequence between the LEO's, so maybe a badge number or something is being used.
The BLM LEO's use a 2-digit number that does seem to be in sequence. For instance BLM-20/21/22, BLM-31/32, etc. Each series would seem to be either the District or Field Office.
I have no idea what IDs are used by any of the BLM/USFS investigative units in Colorado or where they are based.
vlarian
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I can speak about LEOs on the Sierra NF in California. Here the LEOs are assigned to the ranger districts and generally stay in their assigned district. The Sierra as one patrol commander who is the commander for three forests (Stanislaus, Sequoia, and Sierra) one patrol captain, six officer positions three are filled one of which is a K9(15K6) and two special agents who also cover three forests. our LEO have two call signs, "4A1 for the commander, 15C1 for the captain and 15E1-6 (1-3 for the Bass Lake RD and 4-6 for the High Sierra RD) for the officers and D4XX for the special agents. those call signs are what they use when working on USFS channels, all LEOs in CA use this scheme of the first two numbers representing their home forest. When working on Local sheriff channels they are "Forest Service XX".
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