A UPS is not very efficient and nothing is a clean as true 12VDC from a battery.
UPS for power
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n5ims
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Looks to be two UB-1280 (12v 8AH batteries) wired in series. $23.95 each (https://www.altex.com/12v-8ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-w-f2-terminals). You can probably remove and reuse the top part that wires the two batteries in series to help it fit properly in your unit.
FYI, since the batteries contain a significant amount of lead it's illegal to simply dump them into a landfill. Will you get caught, probably not, but if you do they really take things like that seriously since they're classified as hazardous materials with both state and federal laws controlling their disposal.
mmckenna
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Check Home Depot in their light bulb section. They stock batteries for back up emergency lights, exit lights, etc. I picked up 12 volt 8 amp/hour batteries for my old UPS before. I'm using a 25 year old UPS that came with the wife when we got married.
Most cities, landfills, recycle centers and even places that sell batteries like this, will recycle them for free. There's absolutely no reason to dump used batteries in the trash (or anywhere else!)
I have been using 2-12V deep cycle batteries in parallel for about 10 years for constant power for radio's and also a 16 channel DVR for security cameras, and also powering 6 cameras with IR for night vision.
If the batteries are basically identical in all respects (including age) they do fine in parallel. The first set lasted 5 years, and the current set is 5 1/2 years old.
I had a lot of trouble at first with charging them, the first charger was for solar applications but it was putting out a lot of hash that could be heard in the audio, now I have a mean well smart 3 stage charger that can put out 60 amps if need be and no hash in the audio. It has worked well and never over or under charged the batteries.
If the batteries are basically identical in all respects (including age) they do fine in parallel. The first set lasted 5 years, and the current set is 5 1/2 years old.
I had a lot of trouble at first with charging them, the first charger was for solar applications but it was putting out a lot of hash that could be heard in the audio, now I have a mean well smart 3 stage charger that can put out 60 amps if need be and no hash in the audio. It has worked well and never over or under charged the batteries.
mmckenna
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Yeah, it's not an issue if it's done right. I have several sites running multiple 48 volt battery stacks that are essentially each a stack of 24 each 2 volt cells and those the two stacks are paralleled together. Each battery stack is separately fused before they are bussed together.
And then there's the power systems, which are very carefully setup with temperature compensation, current control, etc.
Probably some of the concern with the 'car battery' statement is that they vent hydrogen gas when charging, and that can be a big problem inside. Gel cell batteries are a better choice since they don't generate as much hydrogen gas and what they do gets recombined into the battery.
I am retired from working for money now; but I was an electrician in my former life, 1975-2001, and became very familiar with those batteries, I think they were made by Globe in those days. Holophane, which was a commercial lighting manufacturer came out with backup power units with those batteries in series-parallel ending up with 12V DC which they used to power an inverter to get AC. Those units were built with 2 stainless steel trays for each 3 batteries, the 1500 watt units had 3 trays. The units were built like tanks mechanically, but piss -poor as far as their design and as I found out a maintenance nightmare.
The battery charger would go up in smoke if it tried to recharge all those batteries after a deep discharge. Also the maintenance people would never keep the batteries topped of with distilled water like they were told. To make a long story short they gave up after a few years and getting sued a few times. We ended up taking them all out and just installing 20 KW Onan type gensets that ran on Nat gas or diesel fuel to keep the exit lights and fire alarms etc, operating as required by the powers that be.
I ended up with a couple of those cabinets, but most of them were scrapped out by the building owners because there was a lot of aluminum and stainless steel in them. One of those is what I use for my 12V stuff because 2 deep cycle group 24 or 27 fit great in there and all of the electronics fit easily in the bottom.
Sorry this was so wordy but it brought back old memories both good & bad!!
The battery charger would go up in smoke if it tried to recharge all those batteries after a deep discharge. Also the maintenance people would never keep the batteries topped of with distilled water like they were told. To make a long story short they gave up after a few years and getting sued a few times. We ended up taking them all out and just installing 20 KW Onan type gensets that ran on Nat gas or diesel fuel to keep the exit lights and fire alarms etc, operating as required by the powers that be.
I ended up with a couple of those cabinets, but most of them were scrapped out by the building owners because there was a lot of aluminum and stainless steel in them. One of those is what I use for my 12V stuff because 2 deep cycle group 24 or 27 fit great in there and all of the electronics fit easily in the bottom.
Sorry this was so wordy but it brought back old memories both good & bad!!
mmckenna
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Not quite what we're using:
Battery Energy Storage Solutions | Exide
But yeah, even the newer gel cell systems require a lot of respect when working around them. Those $1,500 insulated tool sets suddenly look like a really good deal. Mistakes get messy really fast. The old wet cells you were talking about are still used in some applications, but for the most part telecom has moved to gel cells for safety and easier maintenance.
You need to tell her that she came very well equipped
I'd love to know her reaction when you tell her you said that over the internet. If I understand the situation properly, a lot of the battery and solar things (cars etc) are going to 300+ volts. We are all going to have to start thinking about higher voltage DC again and adjust how we do things.
Thanks
Joel
mmckenna
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You need to tell her that she came very well equipped
Yeah, it was a good deal, I've got a lot of use out of that UPS. She does have her ham ticket, but doesn't really have much of an interest in it, just uses it for when/if she's talking with me.
Some solar system are, works a bit better for converting to 110vac.
On the telecom side of my job, it's all -48vdc for running our equipment, however we do have 24KVA inverter plants to run the network equipment (network guys are scared of electricity and want everything to plug in).
spanky15805
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(network guys are scared of electricity and want everything to plug in).
Thats good stuff!
Thats good stuff!
mmckenna
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I used to run all their routers directly off -48vdc. Whenever they had to change out a power supply our complete router, they'd have to call me to do the power work. The router DC power supplies were cheaper and more efficient.
But, they switched everything to 220 volt power supplies at additional cost so they could just unplug them and swap.
Oh, well, at least I have big inverter plants at all my sites that will keep the coffee maker running during power outages...
The high voltage also has much lower losses. I looked at a West Marine Catalog about wiring losses and 12v losses are enormous over even short distances. I thought about it wen trying (just thinking really) about wind power. Even the short distance down the mast from a 12 vdc generator looses a lot of energy, even 48 volts is too low. I read somewhere that "high Voltage" is even being re-defined so that higher voltage DC circuits can be used easier, and in more circumstances.
There is talk, (maybe even a plan), to run some extremely high voltage DC lines as a backbone across the country to help distribute power (which I didn't think was possible).
Thanks
Joel
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mmckenna
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The losses are the same, voltage doesn't matter, current level does. Running a device off 12 volts is going to require more current than a similar device designed to run off higher voltage. Like coaxial cable, all conductors have some loss. Voltage drop along a conductor depends on size, length, material and the amount of current.
Many years ago there was talk of switching vehicles to using 48 volt system to reduce weight. Smaller wires, etc. Never heard of it happening.
That has been happening since world war 2. They ran a HVDC circuit from the Columbia River in Oregon down to Southern California to power plants used for war production. While AC travels better over long distances, it needs 3 conductors for 3 phases. Running DC only required 2 conductors and was a considerable cost/material savings. That circuit is still in use today.
High Voltage DC is also used for linking systems since there's not requirement to have the frequencies in sync. As it is, the nation is divided up into regional grids. Where those grids join, they use DC converter stations so the 60Hz frequency can vary a bit in different regions based on loads/supply. Having the AC - DC - AC allows some protection.
They also use HVDC circuits for long underwater feeds. The connection between the mainland of British Columbia and Vancouver Island is done via a DC circuit to solve some challenges with how water, specifically salt water, impacts the flow of electricity. The run rectifier stations and inverter stations to do this.
Right ! ! I misspoke, for a 300 watt wind set, a lot of power will be lost (when using the same diameter wires) if using a 12vdc generator, vs a 48 volt arrangement, and 300 volts is even better (strictly speaking of losses).
I always thought the inter-grid connections used variable reactors (or something like that) to sync up, I never imagined AC-DC DC-AC converters.
The long haul DC circuits that I was looking at were to take energy from renewable areas that don't produce energy at the same time. (early morning energy produced on the east coast sent to the west coast and vise versa).
Interesting info on the long existing long DC lines.
Thanks
Joel
mmckenna
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I have no idea how I fell down that internet hole, but I did many years ago.
HVDC converter station - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
List of HVDC projects - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
and check out the Pacific DC Intertie:
Pacific DC Intertie - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
—-and I think I was wrong on the WW2 reference to DC power. I was confusing that with something else. Looks like 1960's, 70's era.
I think it started when I noticed the DC circuit running down the eastern side of California and I started researching it. As it goes with the internet, one link lead to another and I think I stayed up until 3am reading all the stuff I found.
DC is pretty handy for a lot of stuff, and back on subject, it's interesting to see how it's generated, used and stored for radio use. Doing it right takes some studying, but it can be a really nice setup. I'm kind of surprised more amateurs are not using solar/storage battery systems to keep their gear up and running. I've got a couple of radio sites that are 100% solar powered. If I ever retire and build out my ham station, I'd probably do something similar.
A battery revert power supply, or even the stand alone battery revert modules added to an existing 12 volt supply would be a good solution for this sort of application. Cheaper and more efficient than a UPS to keep the radios running.
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mmckenna
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OK, one last thing and then I'll stop so I don't get busted:
Interesting to watch how the 60Hz we expect from the utility varies depending on load/generation. Isolating these variances from other parts of the country is done by DC converter stations. Fascinating to watch.
OK, back on subject.
UPS for power, good idea, but can be done more efficiently if all you want is to run 12 volt systems.
Interesting to watch how the 60Hz we expect from the utility varies depending on load/generation. Isolating these variances from other parts of the country is done by DC converter stations. Fascinating to watch.
OK, back on subject.
UPS for power, good idea, but can be done more efficiently if all you want is to run 12 volt systems.
spanky15805
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mmckenna...yeah we'll get yelled at but...
The Sylmar grounding system is a line of 24 silicon-iron alloy electrodes submerged in the Pacific Ocean at Will Rogers State Beach[5] suspended in concrete enclosures about 2 to 3 feet (0.5 to 1 m) above the ocean floor
The Sylmar grounding system is a line of 24 silicon-iron alloy electrodes submerged in the Pacific Ocean at Will Rogers State Beach[5] suspended in concrete enclosures about 2 to 3 feet (0.5 to 1 m) above the ocean floor
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