Using an Itinerant Service for Licensure

[thisguyneedsabeer]

I picked up some XTS5000 radios with AES modules and I also posses the ability to load the keys into those radios (you see where this is going). I was reading about Itinerant Frequencies and from what I can tell encryption is legal on them, and I can't stress enough, I want to program our radios legally and follow the rules here. I
know we would need to stay under 5 watts, and the cost is $260/10 years. I also read that there are no protections against interference from what I also saw, but I would assume PL/DPL tones would take care of some of that.

My question is simply this: is it really that easy as just paying a service like BuyTwoWayRadios to fill out your form for you, or filling out the FCC form?

I would assume you have to be a business with an EIN. In this case, my partner has the commercial side of the paperwork covered. Am I mistaken that "John Q Taxpayer" can't just apply?

Sorry if this has been beaten to death, I want to be able to use our radios and also have the ability to flip on a secure toggle if we need to transmit something sensitive on the fly.

Thanks!

 

[nd5y]

Federal Register :: Request Access

90.35 (a) specifies who is eligible for Industrial/Business licenses.
Eligibilty requirements apply to everything from hand helds on one itinerant channel to multiple repeaters.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Federal Register :: Request Access

90.35 (a) specifies who is eligible for Industrial/Business licenses.
Eligibilty requirements apply to everything from hand helds on one itinerant channel to multiple repeaters.

Yes, there is a licensed commercial entity that would be applying, not an individual.

 

[nd5y]

Also read this.

Industrial / Business Licensing

LicensingIndividuals or entities desiring to operate on frequencies listed in the Industrial/Business Pool are required to obtain a radio station license for these frequencies.Below is some helpful information to aid you with the licensing process.

www.fcc.gov

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Also read this.

Industrial / Business Licensing

LicensingIndividuals or entities desiring to operate on frequencies listed in the Industrial/Business Pool are required to obtain a radio station license for these frequencies.Below is some helpful information to aid you with the licensing process.

www.fcc.gov

I have read that, I was mostly curious if it's as simple as filing out the form (which seems to be buried) or if it is better to use a service. We meet the commercial eligibility requirements.

This is the service I am referencing: Business Itinerant Frequency License

 

[WB5UOM]

If you are pondering a license, unless your "use" will move from place to place then you dont want a itinerant
liscense as that is what they are for.
Not to be used at same location day after day after day.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

If you are pondering a license, unless your "use" will move from place to place then you dont want a itinerant
liscense as that is what they are for.
Not to be used at same location day after day after day.

That is correct, this would be non-static operation. Definitely on the move, not exceeding 3 miles from each other (as an example: think security at an event or similar).

 

[nd5y]

It's as simple as filling out forms and paying,
BUT you have to know how to fill out everything properly or the FCC will dismiss the application. That's why most applicants use a service. If your application needs frequency coordination you can't do that yourself, you have to use a frequency coordinator. If you have to ask questions you probably can't do it yourself.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

It's as simple as filling out forms and paying,
BUT you have to know how to fill out everything properly or the FCC will dismiss the application. That's why most applicants use a service. If your application needs frequency coordination you can't do that yourself, you have to use a frequency coordinator. If you have to ask questions you probably can't do it yourself.

Awesome, that’s what I ultimately wanted to know. Since we meet all of the criteria, I will go through the service and work with someone who can interpret the form into plain English and ensure it is submitted accurately.

I’ve always had my federal eForms submitted via services like this, why start trying to understand the government on my own now, heh.

 

[alcahuete]

Yes, it is that easy. Incredibly easy process to either do yourself (you can look at other similar licenses to see how they were filed) or having a service do it.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Yes, it is that easy. Incredibly easy process to either do yourself (you can look at other similar licenses to see how they were filed) or having a service do it.

I was looking at the 601, and I was getting confused why it was asking about assets, and revenue.

https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/fcc-form-601.pdf

 

[mmckenna]

I was looking at the 601, and I was getting confused why it was asking about assets, and revenue.

https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/fcc-form-601.pdf

FCC will kick it out if there's an error. They won't spend any time trying to figure it out, just kick it back with little in the way of explanation, and let you go through the whole process again.

If you haven't filed FCC paperwork in the past, it's well worth the money to have someone do it for you. They'll get it right the first time and likely have your license in a few days.

Not saying it's impossible to do yourself, but if this is a one time thing and you haven't done it before, sometimes paying the professional is worth it.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

FCC will kick it out if there's an error. They won't spend any time trying to figure it out, just kick it back with little in the way of explanation, and let you go through the whole process again.

If you haven't filed FCC paperwork in the past, it's well worth the money to have someone do it for you. They'll get it right the first time and likely have your license in a few days.

Not saying it's impossible to do yourself, but if this is a one time thing and you haven't done it before, sometimes paying the professional is worth it.

Yeah, that was my original thought. Saw lots of posts about the 600, couldn’t even locate that form, found the 601… as usual, nothing is easy with the federal government. I will certainly be using a service going forward.

 

[N4DES]

Yes, there is a licensed commercial entity that would be applying, not an individual.

An individual can be granted a license as well, it's not limited only to commercial entities.

ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQXS410 - Neuman, Robert L

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Circling back on some final thoughts before applying for a license:

1. I've been scanning 464.500 and 464.550 for the last week, I normally only hear one concession stand vendor using DMR, there's a little bit of encrypted traffic here and there as well.
2. Business Itinerant, from what I'm reading, is effectively fancy MURS with the exception of needing a license. What I mean is, anyone can jump on these frequencies and start transmitting (yes, this is true for any frequency, but I hope my point is not lost), and as long as you're not interfering no one is going to bother you. Since it's not amateur radio, you won't be upsetting that community incurring a fox hunt and end up with an angry mob of hams outside your front door.
3. A licensing service is highly encouraged, read some posts as well about people getting kicked back and wasting time. $400 over 10 years is not a crazy investment, yes, $260 is better, but just get it done properly.
4. Don't expect pure privacy unless you are encrypting.
5. Don't expect to not have interference, again PL/DPL tones can help filter noise here.
6. I still don't understand how vendors can just sell radios that are pre-programmed for these channels (similar to GMRS) and not let the consumer/business know they need a license (specifically Brown Dot/Yellow Dot Radios), that feels like it defeats "you need to be licensed aspect." Reference thread: Re: Color Dot system??
7. When you're approved for license you will need to use itinerant frequencies that the FCC says you can use, you can't just pick them randomly from the pool of frequencies here: Common Itinerant and Business - The RadioReference Wiki which brings a side note: I'm surprised the FCC was able to allocate 800/900 to business? I thought most 700/800/900 was public saftey with the exception of 33cm.

Am I really missing anything here? I want to make sure I have a full grasp before I pay to go through licensure. I'll be sure to update with the licensing process, the service used, and any other lessons, and takeaways that arise.

 

[tweiss3]

@thisguyneedsabeer

1. I've been scanning 464.500 and 464.550 for the last week, I normally only hear one concession stand vendor using DMR, there's a little bit of encrypted traffic here and there as well. This is normal. Those are 2 of the most common.
2. Business Itinerant, from what I'm reading, is effectively fancy MURS with the exception of needing a license. What I mean is, anyone can jump on these frequencies and start transmitting (yes, this is true for any frequency, but I hope my point is not lost), and as long as you're not interfering no one is going to bother you. Since it's not amateur radio, you won't be upsetting that community incurring a fox hunt and end up with an angry mob of hams outside your front door. Yes and no. You have to specify location (Statewide, Multiple States, Continental US, or Nationwide (including HI), as well as specifying how you will use them (mobile, power, etc.)
3. A licensing service is highly encouraged, read some posts as well about people getting kicked back and wasting time. $400 over 10 years is not a crazy investment, yes, $260 is better, but just get it done properly. I don't know about $400, but I did cost myself a major modification because I had a condition of approval (that I can't find in all of the eCFR) that I needed too fix.
4. Don't expect pure privacy unless you are encrypting. It's radio, doesn't matter what service it's in, unless you encrypt, there is no privacy.
5. Don't expect to not have interference, again PL/DPL tones can help filter noise here. Correct, you must accept all interference, and do your best to not create interference. Busy channel lockout should be used.
6. I still don't understand how vendors can just sell radios that are pre-programmed for these channels (similar to GMRS) and not let the consumer/business know they need a license (specifically Brown Dot/Yellow Dot Radios), that feels like it defeats "you need to be licensed aspect." Reference thread: Re: Color Dot system?? Some are just looking for the quick buck to offload a few units.
7. When you're approved for license you will need to use itinerant frequencies that the FCC says you can use, you can't just pick them randomly from the pool of frequencies here: Common Itinerant and Business - The RadioReference Wiki which brings a side note: I'm surprised the FCC was able to allocate 800/900 to business? I thought most 700/800/900 was public saftey with the exception of 33cm. There are no 700/800/900 itinerants. There are VHF Low, VHF and UHF itinerants, and many have conditions to them. When you file, you list each frequency, ERP (power) and emissions (mode) you are going to use. All of that gets approved. The application is your proposal to the FCC. Changes after approval cost more money. Your license will list the location, frequency, ERP and emissions you are approved to use.

I suggest you read Subparts C, G, I, N & O: Federal Register :: Request Access

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

There are no 700/800/900 itinerants. There are VHF Low, VHF and UHF itinerants, and many have conditions to them. When you file, you list each frequency, ERP (power) and emissions (mode) you are going to use. All of that gets approved. The application is your proposal to the FCC. Changes after approval cost more money. Your license will list the location, frequency, ERP and emissions you are approved to use.

Thanks for the detailed response, the only answer I didn't fully understand was the part I quoted. On the RR page I linked the following frequencies were listed as itinerant:

897.6375	Business	(5)
897.6625	Business	(5)
900.9750	Industrial/Land Transportation	(5)
900.9875	Industrial/Land Transportation	(5)
936.6375	Business	(5)
936.6625	Business	(5)
939.9750	Industrial/Land Transportation	(5)
939.9875	Industrial/Land Transportation	(5)

Notes:

• (5) Itinerant use only.

Is this chart no longer accurate?

 

[tweiss3]

I believe those are old, as they do not show up as itinerant in the current rules. I could have missed the notes for those few (I have before). I guess what does 800/900 have that UHF won't do better for you on an itinerant basis?

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

I guess what does 800/900 have that UHF won't do better for you on an itinerant basis?

Oh not a dang thing at all heh. I was just wanting to clarify as I am very green in many regards to business radio usage and want to make sure I have a concrete understanding of what is and is not available to me as I am trying to come up with our communications plan.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I've got my Agribusiness under itinerant licensing. I filed myself and it got kicked back once because Puerto Rico so I ended up just applying for the lower 48 and it stuck. Two VHF pairs, a single VHF channel and two UHF pairs, up to 35 W.