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VP8000 DMR T2 Unmute Issue

ATK3

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I've recently noticed a bit of an odd behaviour with a VP8000 on a DMR T2 system. The system is set up with a Priority Scan list (not RWS). When scan is turned on, the radio won't unmute for traffic unless the Monitor button is used. If parked on a channel with traffic, the indicator LED goes green, but no RSSI bars appear. Holding down Monitor unmutes traffic for the correct TG, and pulls the right Unit ID out of the call.

Turning Scan off solves the problem immediately (behaves as expected - unmuting without needing to use Monitor). Has anyone else encountered this? I'm assuming its some sort of config issue on my end, but it is configured identically to similar scanlists on another DMR T2 system which isn't having the problem. I'm fairly certain its not the system's fault, its only VP8000s acting strangely - Tait and Motorola subscribers have been fine.
 

tweiss3

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Did you try with RWS instead of priority scan?
 

ATK3

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Just programmed an identical scan list into RWS, same issue. Same behaviour with a scan list (RWS and Priority) containing only 1 channel - no difference with that either, even if the selected channel is the same as the one in the scanlist.
 

otobmark

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I’ve never tried a scan list with only 1 channel in it—sort of defeats the purpose. Probably add at least one more channel.

Next make sure the channel you are on when you begin scanning actually has the correct scan list selected under channel settings, right below TG select.

Finally, are the channels in the scan list actually the same as the channels from which you begin scan on? Scan could be taking you to a improperly programmed channel and parking there until you stop scan which would return you to “Selected” which apparently works. I have the same channels programmed under different Systems which have their own scan lists.

There are two ways to ignore TG’s and even squelch CC. One is to use “Normal/Selective”. The other is “CG Disabled” (Channel Guard Disabled which is most brutal, similar to “Digital Squelch” setting under channel receive settings. CG Disabled can only be assigned to a button (cannot be put in Menu the way Normal/Selective or Monitor can). I use the A/B lever for CG Disabled.

Usually in situations such as yours there is a mismatch of settings. In my case it’s usually something obvious to a normal person but hits a blind spot for me on that particular day.
 

ATK3

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Single-channel scan list was just done for testing (mostly to make sure it wasn't an over-full scanlist causing problems). Well aware that it'd be fairly pointless.

Channel has the scanlist mapped correctly, and all channels in the scanlist are in the same zone, and are all programmed correctly (all conventional DMR).

I'll take a look at everything again tomorrow, but I'm fairly certain that the TGs, CCs, timeslots, and freq pairs are all programmed right. Using a button mapped to CG Disabled (monitor) does get it to unmute for traffic while scan is on, but so far that's the only way I've been able to. When it does unmute, it pulls the correct TG out.
 

otobmark

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Using a button mapped to CG Disabled (monitor) does get it to unmute for traffic while scan is on, but so far that's the only way I've been able to.
Monitor and Call Guard (disable) are a side issue and not adequately addressed in the help files. I did trial and error with various monitor and call guard settings to try to find what they actually did. I don’t remember the details of what I found so working from memory without any guarantees made or implied. It began with me trying to setup my VP like my KW NX5300 on P25 so I could unmute on any TG while Transmitting whatever TG outgoing I wanted. I wanted this to be on a per channel basis. I was not successful. My work around was to use a TG of “FFFF” (All call or Broadcast) which would unmute on any incoming TG and also on TX it would cause any receiving radio to unmute regardless of the TG it was using. On the NX I can set a channel to ignore incoming TG while respecting NAC.
On VP I have number 0 button mapped to Monitor. A momentary press caused radio to monitor (open squelch/noise) TX Channel. A long press gives me Squelch Override on RX Channel. I have another button mapped “Selective/Normal” where button press alternates between the two. On Normal it ignores TG but I cannot remember how it handles NAC, CC, or PL—regardless it is a global setting and not per channel. I believe Call Guard disable ignores everything but not positive. The per channel “Digital Squelch” ignores everything except the digital voice signal.

Having said all of that I don’t believe your problem is related to monitor per se. The only other squelch related settings I can find involve RSSI thresholds and can help efficiency with “Look Back” for priority channels during scan. To that end I would probably create a scan list without any Priority Channels in it to see what happens. If it works then I’d know something is wrong with priority settings involving look back times probably.

What kind of repeater is the system in question on? MMDVM based repeaters are often not setup correctly (pulse width, band width, and other timing issues). My KW NX5300 is very sensitive to this on both DMR and P25 receive. My motorolas and other radios are NOT as selective on signal quality and have worked on mmdvm repeaters that my NX either won’t unmute reliably or at all. While I don’t know how much technology crossover there is between KW and EFJ (doesn’t seem to be a lot…) I would have suspicions about VP8000 also being picky about signal being in spec (not noticed so far by me). Tait radios like Motorola may be more tolerant of out of spec signals. The counterpoint is that your radio decodes when not scanning….no theory for this beyond look back timing for priority channels.
I have never noticed any issues when on a non mmdvm repeater and have also had good results on some mmdvm repeaters which were probably more carefully calibrated. This is to say the repeater could be your problem.

Does your radio “Land” on active channel during scan and sit there for the duration of the transmission? I realize it is not unmuting but otherwise is the behavior normal for scanning?

Are you seeing this with multiple VP8000’s?
 

tweiss3

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This is DMR T2, which is conventional repeater traffic. After thinking this over, and re-reading all your comments, I have a few comments and a few suspicions. First, is your timeslot correct? I'm thinking its a timing problem, where your radio scanning is missing the repeater transmission timing information at the beginning of the transmission. Missing that timing information may cause it to act muted because it's not certain of time slot.

I only say this because I had mine scanning with a RWS list that included a P25 P1 system (3 TG scanned), a Analog Type II (Viking 16 in Armada talk) system (2 TG scanned), 3 analog channels, and 3 DMR simplex (no DSDM) frequencies. I did not appear to miss any of the DMR traffic, but in simplex is ignores timeslot with DSDM disabled. The other DMR radios used were NX-3320.
 

ATK3

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Thanks for the replies. To answer as many as I can:
- The repeater is an MTR3000
- The radio does not jump to the active channel during scan
- I'm seeing this with 2 VP8000s, one full keypad and one partial
- The timeslots are programmed correctly

I'm going to check the repeater with a service monitor when I have a chance. It was all gone over relatively recently, so I don't believe its the issue, but I'll double-check, giving specific attention to pulsewidth and bandwidth.

I unfortunately don't have any NX radios to check with at the moment.
 

tweiss3

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What firmware are you on? I tested this past week using RWS with a list that had analog simplex, analog repeater and DMR repeater channels, and I had no issues picking up DMR, even with late entry due to the scan. I'm on firmware 1.44.12. The repeater's that I did testing with were Moto SLR5500 & Hytera in native DMR mode, not an external modem.

How long is the traffic that you aren't hearing? If it's only 1-2 seconds your late arrival may just be missing the traffic due to the arrival on the digital channel at the end of transmission, but it doesn't appear that is the case in your first post.

Is the MTR3000 using the native DMR, or is it connected to an external modem running in DMR through an analog channel? If an external modem is used, here are a few notes about alignment for it to work properly:
  • If you have access to appropriate RF test equipment (or equivilant equipment) that is capable of monitor the overall transmitted analog FM deviation; if is important to adjust both the modem and the connected radios so that the overall transmitted analog FM deviation be between 2.75khz and 2.83khz (a center average of 2.80khz analog FM deviation is best).
  • When using a repeater/modem board attached to an appropriate FM repeater/radio, it may be necessary to "de-tune" the repeater/radio slightly, most commercial grade equipment operating within a 12.5khz channel may impose a strict 2.5khz (and no greater) maximum analog FM deviation, this is well below what is required for good digital operation. It may be necessary using whatever tuning/alignment tools to "de-tune" or adjust the equipments alignment to allow for a wider analog FM deviation, as close to 2.80khz as possible.
I had an issue with an NX5k where the alignment was correct, but the audio was too hot causing additional deviation/distortion. Worked fine for some other radios, but the NX5k refused to open squelch until the audio level was adjusted.
 

otobmark

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If you have access to appropriate RF test equipment (or equivilant equipment) that is capable of monitor the overall transmitted analog FM deviation; if is important to adjust both the modem and the connected radios so that the overall transmitted analog FM deviation be between 2.75khz and 2.83khz (a center average of 2.80khz analog FM deviation is best).
Glad to have some numbers for what I was trying to say. I believe your last post has covered the bases. I have never noticed any scan problems with my VP8K but without a structured test procedure a lot can be missed.
Excellent post!
 

ATK3

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The radio is on firmware 8.44.10 and programmed with Armada v1.44.12 (both latest release afaik). The length of the traffic doesn't seem to matter, I've tested with just about every permutation of traffic length, call type, or 2nd-party radio I can think of, and nothing changes. To test the repeater theory, I did try using a few radios in talkaround (which I know isn't a perfect test due to DSDM not being fully standardized), but with single-slot talkaround, I'm not having the issue.

The MTR is doing its DMR modulation internally, but I do have an IFR 2975 on-hand, so I can do some checks as-described just as a baseline. I don't have a DMR service monitor readily available, but could borrow one if I become more sure that the issue is with the repeater.

Thanks again for all the insight!
 
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