Washington 700 MOSWIN Tower

[rbritton1201]

As some may know, I've had problems receiving Washington, Missouri PD at my base station in Union Missouri, just 6 miles South of Washington, using either one of my base station scanners, the SDS200 and the BCD536HP. I can't receive anything off the Washington tower via my wide-band Discone Antenna, no voice traffic, and not any deflection of signal bars on either base station scanner from the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower.

I have a Discone antenna, attic mounted, about twenty feet off the ground, which perfectly receives MSHP transmissions from the Weldon Spring Tower, the Imperial Tower, the St. Clair Tower, and even the Shirley Tower, way down in Washington County. This anomaly has plagued me for many months...not being able to receive transmissions from the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower (ie: Washington PD), just 6 miles down the road, when I can receive MSHP digital transmissions off of MOSWIN towers that are much further away.

I got a new BCD436HP for Christmas, which now allows me to travel with a digital scanner within Washington PDs venue. I programmed my new BCD436HP with the proper programming for the Washington 700 tower, as well as the talk groups for Washington PD. Today I traveled from my house on the East side of Union, Missouri, near Walmart, all the way up Highway 47 into Washington. When I got to within about 2.5 miles of Washington, I was able to receive voice traffic from Washington PD. As I got closer to Washington city limits, the bars on the signal indicator eventually were at full deflection during voice transmission, as well as full deflection on the signal indicator polling off the tower itself, at times when there was no voice transmissions present. Programming between all these radios is identical, but there is no reception off the Washington tower via my base station scanners in Union, Missouri. At least now I know it's not a programming issue.

That tower in Washington is under powered compared to other area MOSWIN towers, only 12 watts, versus 25 watt output from the other towers I mentioned above. I have yet to experiment further as to "where" I'm able to receive signals off of the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower using my BCD436HP. But, I theorize that there might be a directional characteristic to that tower's antenna system. I can receive transmissions about 2.5 miles South of Washington PDs venue, but that's about 2.3 miles outside Washington's venue, and then I lose signal completely. After that, the tower is totally dead all the way into Union, Missouri. I guess it could be geography, but I think it may be that the antenna on the MOSWIN tower is not omnidirectional in configuration, although the MOSWIN maps show it as being omnidirectional in coverage. But, due to the abruptness of signal loss only 2.3 miles outside of Washington on highway 47, I wonder if the antenna system is in fact omnidirectional.

Some have reported a dead spot along I44 between Hwy. 100 and St. Clair, which is quite a distance outside Washington's venue, which may further indicate that the antenna system is only directional, and when you figure in the lower power output of the tower, these geographical limits begin to make some sense. It almost seems as though Washington only wants their signal footprint to be within their city limits, give or take a few miles. Washington's venue is relatively narrow, with their city limits being only along an area parallel with Highway 100, North to the Missouri river, West from Highway 47/100 only a few miles, and East along Highway 100 just a few miles, and not even close to as far East as I44, where signal is totally lost.

I'm wondering if I erected a dedicated VHF/UHF antenna and a dedicated 700-800 Mhz. antenna, if there is a device whereby I can mix a VHF/UHF and 700-800 Mhz. antenna, and get the full range of frequencies in order to receive all these public safety bands through my base scanners, with having such a wide band width. The antenna would have to be attic mounted due to neighborhood restrictions, so improving elevation isn't an option.

Is it even reasonable to assume that a mixed VHF/UHF/700-800 Mhz. antenna would work any more efficiently than my Discone antenna setup? If the antenna system on the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower is directional, is it even likely that any antenna changes at my home would make much of a difference with respect to reception at my base station scanners?

 

[kruser]

Just curious where you looked up the 12 watt power output at?

Like you, I also suspect a possible directional antenna system at the Washington site.
Now when I came out highway 94 from I-64 one day, I did start picking up the Washington 700 site not far away from I-64 after I'd turned off onto 94 heading toward Washington. The signal was only strong on top of the hills along 94 though until I was maybe 5 or so miles from Dutzow. Then the signal remained very strong all the way into Washington. Before that point, the signal would drop off to nothing as I went down into valleys along 94. I was not using a 7/800 MHz mobile antenna though. I was using an old Antenna Specialists mobile antenna made for VHF Low and High band only but it still worked pretty well for me for UHF and 7/800 signals.

It's also odd that I can pickup the Washington 700 site here from the eastern most edge of Chesterfield, MO but I am using a 12 element yagi aimed towards Washington when I do that. And then there are times when conditions are not perfect that I can't get a signal from that site here at home.
I've never measured the distance from say Olive Street and Highway 141 in Chesterfield out to Washington but I'd say it's a fair distance.
I do have a slight elevation advantage also with antennas atop a 3 story building so I'm sure that helps.

I'm glad you got the new portable so you could do some good research and testing!

 

[rbritton1201]

Hi Kruser,

The link where I found the 12 mile range specification is at the following link: Washington 700 Site Details (Missouri Statewide Wireless Interoperable Network (MOSWIN).

See below, the range is indicated at the bottom of the Radio Reference page for the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower. I had to shrink the image down to make it fit on the forum page, but you can expand it, I think.



The range circle indicates a range all the way out to areas where Washington's transmissions don't reach. My experience so far seems like the range is actually significantly curtailed in comparison to the circle. I think Washington must be using a directional antenna system. It makes me wonder if the City of Washington might have provided the antenna for their digital transmitter, and that perhaps one transmitter was assigned to Washington specifically. Most towers have several transmitters, and perhaps the other transmitters operating on the Washington 700 tower are operating via antennas that are omnidirectional and not directional. I don't know much about the way these towers are configured, and whether Washington could even be operating on one of the transmitters that has a directional antenna on it. But, that's what it seems like to me.

 

[nd5y]

Database range circles are for location based scanning and have nothing to do with real life radio coverage.

 

[KA0KDW]

The ranges on the DB are only estimates. They by no means reflect actual coverage. Also, you can run a a couple band antennas with one scanner. I’m planning on doing that my self sometime in the next couple months. It would need to run through a diplexer.

 

[rbritton1201]

It's way off, and virtually useless for location based scanning. The width of the signal path off the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower is very narrow, maybe only a few miles either way from the tower, and it doesn't come remotely close to a circle configuration. The signal path resembles more the the shape of a hotdog.

 

[rbritton1201]

This is the page out of the MOSWIN map book, no affiliation with Radio Reference. It could be that the gray areas depict the venue boundaries. But, I believe it could be likely that it illustrates the actual shape of the Washington 700 MOSWIN tower's signal path. No wonder I can't hear them in Union. It's a pathway along the width of Washington PDs venue, along Highway 100, parallel with the Missouri River on one side, and only extending South a mile or two at most from the city limits, which correlates with their venue boundaries pretty closely. The Radio Reference circle isn't too hot for scanner reception estimates, and MOSWIN's map page might be much more accurate with respect to the tower's actual signal path, unless it's just their venue boundaries.

 

[stlouisx50]

The biggest baddest site in the land would be that Shirley site. I have seen not another like it.

Washington 700 like I said in the past transmits up 47 to near dutzow, then spotty to Marthasville. You might get a signal driving up the huge hill towards Warrenton, but it won't last long.

I think the directional thing may be more common than many think.

 

[rbritton1201]

I agree, it's exceptional!

The biggest baddest site in the land would be that Shirley site. I have seen not another like it.

Washington 700 like I said in the past transmits up 47 to near dutzow, then spotty to Marthasville. You might get a signal driving up the huge hill towards Warrenton, but it won't last long.

I think the directional thing may be more common than many think.

 

[kruser]

Hi Kruser,

The link where I found the 12 mile range specification is at the following link: Washington 700 Site Details (Missouri Statewide Wireless Interoperable Network (MOSWIN).

Okay, you had said "Watts" as in RF power in your original post, not range. That's what I was curious about is where you came up with the power output of the transmitters. Watts and Range in miles are not the same but I'd imagine you just mistyped it!
I'm familiar with the range circle estimates like shown at the link you provided but from my experience, they are usually just a crude best guess at estimating the range. I myself have never relied upon that part of a sites info.
I'd be more interested in the antennas used for the Washington 700 site. I'm not sure that info is out there for the 700 MHz state licensed sites though. If it is, that could give us a better idea if they are using directional antennas or not.
I know at least one person that tried to find the sites antennas but nothing positive was found for that actual location.
I did see the coordinates show it at the city PD stations tower but signal strength readings taken there pretty much ruled that out. The person trying to find the sites antennas did get high signal strengths near the cities water tower so that's a possible location.

Your quoted text below is what I was asking about where you said Watts!

That tower in Washington is under powered compared to other area MOSWIN towers, only 12 watts, versus 25 watt output from the other towers I mentioned above.

 

[kruser]

Washington 700 like I said in the past transmits up 47 to near dutzow, then spotty to Marthasville. You might get a signal driving up the huge hill towards Warrenton, but it won't last long.

I think the directional thing may be more common than many think.

That's pretty much my experience as well with the Washington 700 site but I did have better reception than I think you had mentioned in another post when I traveled out 94 from I-64. I started picking up the Washington site much closer to I-64 than what I remembered you reporting before.
Not a big deal though. I think we all agree something is different about the Washington 700 site!

 

[rbritton1201]

I wouldn't be surprised at that. I know the ARES repeater antenna is on the water tower, but haven't heard anything to verify that the MOSWIN antenna is there as well There's also a EMA antenna on top of Mercy Hospital's Roof. The MOSWIN antenna could be up there too, but I haven't heard either way. You'll notice that on the Radio Reference page, the only actual MOSWIN tower in Franklin County that is depicted as a "tower," is in St. Clair. So, it may stand to reason that the Washington 700 MOSWIN antenna is on some other man made structure (ie: water tower, hospital roof, etc...)

...high signal strengths near the cities water tower so that's a possible location.

 

[nd5y]

The MOSWIN map book on the state web site is way out of date. If you look carefully at the icons you will see that it doesn't even have the Washington site (or many other newer 700 MHz sites).

 

[rbritton1201]

I think there's quite a number of MOSWIN sites that either aren't notated on the MOSWIN maps, or it could be that the sites that have been added over the years aren't on dedicated towers, but on other types of man made structures. I suspect there's a number of MOSWIN sites that are almost like "mini MOSWIN sites," which would be indicative of the Washington 700 site, with it's very concentrated signal path, which seems as though it correlates with Washington's city limits. Most of the MOSWIN sites that are depicted as dedicated tower sites on the MOSWIN maps have considerably greater range potential than what we routinely experience from the Washington 700 site. I suspect there are many other MOSWIN sites that have limited range like Washington 700, but I'm speculating.

 

[rbritton1201]

Has anyone actually seen a MOSWIN antenna? Is it even possible to visually distinguish whether a MOSWIN antenna is on top of the Washington water tower? The Washington 700 MOSWIN system is in the 700Mhz. range.


Among the selection of antennas on the top of the Washington water tower, I don't have the expertise to separate out which of the antennas resemble an antenna that might be a digital MOSWIN antenna, if any. I assume the round dishes on top of the tower are dedicated to data communications, and I feel confident that a few of the vertical antennas are VHF/UHF antennas. But what does a 700 Mhz. MOSWIN antenna look like?

 

[nd5y]

The antenna on the far left is VHF. The one on the far right is cut off. I can't tell what it is without seeing the whole antenna. A couple others I can't tell if they are antennas or mounting pipes.

Fiberglass pole type antennas could be 700 MHz or other bands. You can't tell by looking. A lot of times there will be 2 or 3 identical antennas. The small round ones are microwave antennas. They could be used for backhaul by the same systems as the vertical antennas or they could be for other services. There is no way to tell.

If you can get close enough to take a picture like that then you should unplug your antenna and see if you still receive the site with no antenna or search 769-775 MHz and see if it stops on a control channel. That's the easiest way to tell if a MOSWIN site is located there.

 

[rbritton1201]

Below is a photo that includes the full length of the vertical antenna on the right, which was cut off in the prior photo. It looks like that antenna on the right was elevated upon a mast, probably to avoid RF coupling were it installed at relatively the same height as the other vertical antennas. The long vertical antenna on the left appears to me as well to possibly be VHF/UHF, and it also appears to be elevated to avoid RF coupling.

There's a theory that the MOSWIN antenna system, in this case, is directional. There's a couple of relatively short antennas that appear they might be fiberglass construction that are oriented 180 degrees and a relatively short distance apart, which suggests to me that these antennas could be forming a directional array. But, that's purely speculation on my part. Next time I'm in Washington I'll try the antenna disconnection suggestion, and I'll see if I can pickup the control channel.

 

[nd5y]

There's a couple of relatively short antennas that appear they might be fiberglass construction that are oriented 180 degrees and a relatively short distance apart, which suggests to me that these antennas could be forming a directional array.

Those are way too far apart to be a directional array at 700 MHz.

 

[rbritton1201]

Yeah, when I blow-up the photos, it even appears that some of what I thought looked like antennas close enough to possibly form a directional array, are actually masts that round dishes are mounted on. Most of what's up there are masts that support round dishes.

Those are way too far apart to be a directional array at 700 MHz.

 

[rbritton1201]

I don't know if the Radio Reference Page for the MOSWIN Washington 700 site is accurate with respect to LAT/LONG coordinates. But, based on what's published in Radio Reference with respect to LAT/LONG, the MOSWIN site is located at 1351 Jefferson St., whereas the PD is located at 301 Jefferson St. But numerically, the street addresses might start out going West, down Jefferson St., and rise as the addresses come back on the North side of the PD Eastbound. The LAT/LONG of the MOSWIN site appears just North of the Police Department. But, to confirm any of this, I'll plan to physically scope it out next time I'm up there, and I'll take my BCD436HP with me to sample the RF signal in that area.

I know at least one person that tried to find the sites antennas but nothing positive was found for that actual location.
I did see the coordinates show it at the city PD stations tower but signal strength readings taken there pretty much ruled that out. The person trying to find the sites antennas did get high signal strengths near the cities water tower so that's a possible location to be at.