Washington DC: Firefighter radios did not work in tunnel during Metro smoke incident

[MrAntiDigital]

Damm, I thought I was not going to have to continue seeing Mr.Idontgetit's trolling here anymore since I set him to ignore. But he now seems to fill others posts also (no knock on the others)

Moderators - can you please step in. This is not a anti digital thread. This is about the incident in DC and the FACTS with it. There have been quality discussions here including from Lindsay.

Can you please get this back on track

Moderators, when you step in please take a good look at the above post. Who is Mr Idontgetit.? Maybe he's talking about MrAntiDigital, because at times he did seem to get a little upset with me over this discussion.

I only presented some facts as I knew them. Nothing wrong with that. Certainly a difference of opinion. But nothing to get hot under the collar over. So please talk to this individual. I think that might be a good idea. We don't even know each other. I don't know if he lives across the street or across the country from me. But he sure seems to be very upset about what I've had to say here. .

This is only a Forum. A chance for all of us to present our thoughts and ideas. A "give and take" discussion. If people don't agree, Jez, lighten up okay. Of course you can disagree with me. But don't give yourselves a stroke over it.

In reality, if anybody should be complaining about this, it should be those 84 victims who were gasping for air on the floor of those subway cars. Those are the people that this is really all about.

Can I assume that the radio problem has been corrected ? As someone has pointed out, it is fixed now ? Or is there still an issue with firefighters and police officers radios not working in that building ? If it is still an issue, what about other large buildings in D.C. ? I think that is the purpose of this entire discussion. Radio systems that work.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Moderators, when you step in please take a good look at the above post.

Why?

Who is Mr Idontgetit?

That would be you

Maybe he's talking about MrAntiDigital

Yup he is

because at times he did seem to get a little upset with me over this discussion

He is not the only one.

[/QUOTE]I only presented some facts as I knew them.[/QUOTE]

Please do not confuse fact with opinion, you presented opinion, not fact.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yes there is. When one calls opinion fact, it is frustrating.

Certainly a difference of opinion.

Ahh, now you call it opinion, which is is?

[/QUOTE]But nothing to get hot under the collar over.[/QUOTE]

When you try and present opinion as fact people that actually understand what you are berating about tend to get a bit hot under the collar.

In reality, if anybody should be complaining about this, it should be those 84 victims who were gasping for air on the floor of those subway cars. Those are the people that this is really all about.

yes it is! and this is about why the radios did not work.



[/QUOTE]Can I assume that the radio problem has been corrected ? As someone has pointed out, it is fixed now ? Or is there still an issue with firefighters and police officers radios not working in that building ?[/QUOTE]

Who knows, but I bet it will be shortly if it is not already

If it is still an issue, what about other large buildings in D.C. ?

Uh this failure was of specific equipment to provide coverage in a specific place, separate from the infrastructure of the radio system. I do not know how many times this needs to be explained to you...

I think that is the purpose of this entire discussion.

It WAS, until you turned it into an anti-digital radio discussion.

Radio systems that work.

It DOES WORK. The coverage issue was a result of a system owned by some one other than the radio system owners... What do you not understand about that? Sheesh.

 

[dwlipp]

Excuse me...

...MrAntiDigital, your ignorance is showing. The station that you have decided to define as a building is a tunnel, a bigger tunnel than the one that the trains travel in between stations, but a tunnel none the less. As one might imagine, being a tunnel, it is subterranean; being subterranean it is dependent on the distributed antenna system (DAS) for coverage just like the all the other tunnels.

I know that you have this hobbyhorse that you apparently take great pride in dragging out and riding prominently whenever you see the slightest opportunity, but the problems experienced during the Metro response the other day don't have anything to do with the modulation of the radios involved; the problems were related to the DAS outage, the failure to quickly remediate the outage when identified, and to the lack of a good backup plan given the known outage. I would suggest that you might want to drag the horse back into the closet and bring it out on some other day, when there might be the slightest possibility that your fixation has something to do with the topic at hand.

Dallas

PS - Please don't try to tell me how the magical analog modulation would have allowed users to talk from the tunnels to the street in the absence of the DAS; we have tested that and it doesn't.

Thank you "troymail" for posting that. You are correct. On page 12 of 37, I will quote from an Email which describes an issue with the 800 Mhz radios NOT only in the tunnel, but ANYWHERE in the Lenfant Plaza Metro Station prior to this incident. ("ge.....", I thought you read this report ?)

Anyway, let me quote: Page 12 of 37, Email sent on January 8, 2015.

"DCFD units responded to the Lenfant Plaza Metro Station yesterday (that would be January 7, 2015) and reported NO 800 MHz radio coverage ANYWHERE in the station, including the right of way".

As we know, this incident happened on January 13, 2015. Just to add, before I read this report, I had heard today a report from CBS News Radio 88 in New York City about a problem with these radios being tested several days prior to this incident. Apparently, that radio station is referring to this Email that was sent several days earlier.

And to give credit to the DCFD, it does look like they were doing their job in testing these radios at that station. Just like their Brothers and Sister Firefighters of the Boston Fire Department and the FDNY do.

So come on guys, it wasn't just a failure of the radios in the tunnels, but within the entire building. Those firefighters could have been anywhere in that building and still had trouble. So how many other buildings in D.C. would there be a problem with those 800 MHz radios. If you were one of those firefighters, would you still feel safe using them ? Or if you were a police officer calling for help in that building ?

I thought I'd be finished here, but I just wanted to point out that part of the Email to a few members. I think they might have missed it.

Also in my previous you tube videos posted, you can add these departments reporting problems with digital radios:
San Francisco Bay Area Police against these radios.
San Mateo County, Cal. Sheriffs
City of Milwaukie, Wis.

Respectfully,
MrAntiDigital, aka Willy "D"

 

[MrAntiDigital]

Well gentlemen, thank you all for your opinion of my opinion. But you really don't need to convince me. You really need to convince the people who will be depending on this radio system. The firefighters and the police officers of Washington, D.C.

You also need to convince the people that use that subway station every day, that they can have confidence in the radio system.

As police or fire chief, just reassure them that their digital radio system is the best way to go, whether it is a below grade subway system, a building on a military base or a single family house in the suburbs of D.C.

And guys, really, don't worry about trying to convince "MrAntiDigital". Where he lives they still use low, high and ultra high band radio systems. Doesn't seem to be too many issues with that. I am convinced they work just fine.

So don't worry about trying to convince me. Just convince them. Because if I were a police officer or firefighter, or a civilian who depended on these digital systems, after seeing some of these videos, I'd want to be reassured that everything is okay and perfectly safe to use.

This Washington, D.C. subway Mass Causality Incident, just once again, brings some questions that firefighters, police officers and civilians may be concerned about.

 

[burner50]

The digital vs. anti-digital conversation is over.


You can continue it privately. Any further arguing will be met with infractions (this is your warning).

 

[ThePhotoGuy]

New Radio Encryption May Have Stymied Communication in Metro Incident, Sources Say
By Adam Tuss

Monday, Jan 19, 2015 • Updated at 5:21 PM EST

D.C. firefighters and emergency responders may not have been able to communicate with Metro officials during last week's fatal L'Enfant Plaza smoke incident because of recent changes to a communications control room in Northwest D.C., according to multiple sources with direct knowledge of the investigation.

The D.C. Fire Department recently made a move to encrypt its radio transmissions, meaning only agencies that know how to tap into the encrypted network can communicate with D.C. Fire and EMS units.

On Jan. 12, the day of the L'Enfant Plaza episode, Metro's communications controls were not synced up with D.C. Fire's communication controls in the new encrypted setting. Those controls are housed at a control room at One Judiciary Square, NW.

More: New Radio Encryption May Have Stymied Communication in Metro Incident, Sources Say | NBC4 Washington

 

[scannermanner1]

Here is another interesting story

Report: Radio trouble for responders at DC subway rescue

 

[badlans]

The plot thickens [1]. We may have more info by Friday. Still more questions than answers.

[1] Metro officials clarify communication breakdown during L

 

[fredva]

The plot thickens [1]. We may have more info by Friday. Still more questions than answers.

[1] Metro officials clarify communication breakdown during L

If the politicians made the decision to encrypt in an attempt to hide FD problems from the media and the public, I would say it backfired.

 

[gesucks]

Try this

UPDATE: Attention members of Congress & reporters: Metro does not talk on DC fire radios & DCFD doesn't talk on Metro's radios - Statter911

 

[jonwienke]

DCFD radio changes led to communication woes during Metro smoke mishap | WJLA.com

Another news item indicating encryption was the cause of the communication breakdown. The repeaters in the Metro tunnel didn't have the current DCFD encryption key, so they couldn't/wouldn't relay the firefighter comms, and DCFD couldn't talk to Metro.

 

[badlans]

I think Dallas knows what he's talking about [1]. I'd pay attention to what he is saying both here and elsewhere.

I also thought the whole post that 'gesucks' pointed out [2] above was also very informative.



[1] UPDATE: Attention members of Congress & reporters: Metro does not talk on DC fire radios & DCFD doesn't talk on Metro's radios - Statter911

[2] UPDATE: Attention members of Congress & reporters: Metro does not talk on DC fire radios & DCFD doesn't talk on Metro's radios - Statter911

 

[badlans]

Same song, different verse?

Montgomery County firefighters discover Metro radio trouble - The Washington Post