What to scan during a civil disturbance when first responders are encrypted.

[MUTNAV]

Since a lot of L.E. and fire is going encrypted. What would be a good source (I assume multiple sources) of 'unofficial' (ie not commercial broadcast) and very local information.

For example during the equivalent of the London riots.

Off hand I'm thinking of C.B. and FRS/GMRS, and local ham repeaters.

Any real life examples would be helpful, in addition to theories.

Thanks
Joel

 

[RaleighGuy]

Since a lot of L.E. and fire is going encrypted. What would be a good source (I assume multiple sources) of 'unofficial' (ie not commercial broadcast) and very local information.

Off hand I'm thinking of C.B. and FRS/GMRS, and local ham repeaters.

During past events, I've heard very little to nothing on CB/FRS/GMRS/Ham Repeaters/MURS, however Statewide shared/event channels are often in the clear though since multiple agencies use them.

Though the real answer is how your state's EOP is set up

 

[SA_tx_88116]

I would scan federal frequencies as well as the local LE as during emergencies they tend to not use encryption or only a few units are encrypted but that’s just my local system.

 

[bearcatrp]

Your local pd may be encrypted but if they call in help, chances are they will do a patch, which sometimes isn’t encrypted. During George Floyed stuff in minneapolis, there pd is encrypted but the patch wasn’t. Got to hear allot of stuff going on. Local businesses may be using DMR. Scan some of that to possibly pick up some info. As mentioned above, federal would be a good one. Would be good to have multiple radios to dedicate each radio a specific task. I have 4 to monitor different groups.

 

[SA_tx_88116]

Forgot to mention the national guard

 

[trentbob]

Yeah, no, the only thing we have in Philly is the three Networks have Choppers constantly covering the news, they do share of course. But there are three news desks who communicate with the Choppers and we have two air-to-air Chopper frequencies where you often get very raw reports from Pilot to Pilot who don't hold back and could care less about sharing information. That information never gets into the official reports as the producer and news desk is not listening.

Other than that, all of our police is encrypted including the state police. In Center City Philadelphia there really isn't much in the clear that's going to give you much real, information. Right now District dispatch is in the clear and city wide emergency band Etc is in the clear but that's going to be changing very soon, apx 6000 radios have been programmed with a whole new set of encrypted talk groups on a separate Zone and with
the post-election unrest that will be.. the plan is going forward. Philadelphia will be totally encrypted at that point, even dispatch and Citywide talk groups.

 

[KK4JUG]

Don't rule out FRS/GMRS to monitor the other side.

In years past Columbus and Ft. Benning (now Ft. Moore) had protests that attracted 20,000 or more. They protested what was then called the School of Americas. Ft. Benning offered training to certain Caribbean, Central American and South American ranking soldiers and certain high-ranking civilians (national police chiefs, generals, some cabinet officials, etc.). Their training involved civil unrest, infrastructure protection, etc. The protests were choreographed and planned in advance and police generally knew everything that was going to happen. Rarely was there ever a problem. There were years when no arrests were even made, even for minor offenses.

In later years, anarchists would come in and try to use the crowds to cover their activities. Invariably, they used FRS/GMRS radios to coordinate their movements. Unbeknownst to them, it also kept police informed of their activities. Our undercover people would would be sent to monitor and report on the anarchists. The rebels could accomplish nothing.

The protestors don't come anymore. Those were the good ole days.

 

[MUTNAV]

Thanks for all of the info... so far it seems that FRS/GMRS and repeaters go down on the list of things to monitor.

News Chopper, and possibly police) air -air, possibly, city transit, and school buses, (maybe even the schools themselves), may be worth looking into for me.

Don't rule out FRS/GMRS to monitor the other side.

In years past Columbus and Ft. Benning (now Ft. Moore) had protests that attracted 20,000 or more. They protested what was then called the School of Americas. Ft. Benning offered training to certain Caribbean, Central American and South American ranking soldiers and certain high-ranking civilians (national police chiefs, generals, some cabinet officials, etc.). Their training involved civil unrest, infrastructure protection, etc. The protests were choreographed and planned in advance and police generally knew everything that was going to happen. Rarely was there ever a problem. There were years when no arrests were even made, even for minor offenses.

In later years, anarchists would come in and try to use the crowds to cover their activities. Invariably, they used FRS/GMRS radios to coordinate their movements. Unbeknownst to them, it also kept police informed of their activities. Our undercover people would would be sent to monitor and report on the anarchists. The rebels could accomplish nothing.

The protestors don't come anymore. Those were the good ole days.

I thought it was Ft Bragg.
In general the things they had to teach the central / south Americans to counter problems, is the same stuff used to create problems (in their home countries).

Thanks
Joel


Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Yeah, no, the only thing we have in Philly is the three Networks have Choppers constantly covering the news, they do share of course. But there are three news desks who communicate with the Choppers and we have two air-to-air Chopper frequencies where you often get very raw reports from Pilot to Pilot who don't hold back and could care less about sharing information. That information never gets into the official reports as the producer and news desk is not listening.

Other than that, all of our police is encrypted including the state police. In Center City Philadelphia there really isn't much in the clear that's going to give you much real, information. Right now District dispatch is in the clear and city wide emergency band Etc is in the clear but that's going to be changing very soon, apx 6000 radios have been programmed with a whole new set of encrypted talk groups on a separate Zone and with
the post-election unrest that will be.. the plan is going forward. Philadelphia will be totally encrypted at that point, even dispatch and Citywide talk groups.

So do you have any plans on how to monitor things when they are all encrypted?

As a side note, I've noticed slightly (very slightly) unusual people behavior.

Thanks
Joel

 

[KK4JUG]

I thought it was Ft Bragg.
In general the things they had to teach the central / south Americans to counter problems, is the same stuff used to create problems (in their home countries).

Thanks
Joel


Thanks
Joel

I helped teach some of those classes. Everything was legit.

 

[trentbob]

With the last Philadelphia riots that ln symphony with the same theme nationally.. Philly was famous for allowing not to mention that there was not one hotel room available that was not occupied by out of town males.

That well known mayor and police chief for what they are are gone now and maybe with the election coming up, the new mayor and police chief will maybe, do a better job resisting the forces dictating to them to facilitate, fund and encourage the riots and approach things in a different way, it appears that's the way it is. We can only

 

[MUTNAV]

I helped teach some of those classes. Everything was legit.

I wasn't saying it wasn't legit...

What I'm saying is probably better by comparing it to aggressor aircraft units in the U.S.

They get good (hopefully) at how to do things, and if they ever try to use their knowledge for nefarious purposes, they're pretty well trained for it.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

With the last Philadelphia riots that ln symphony with the same theme nationally.. Philly was famous for allowing not to mention that there was not one hotel room available that was not occupied by out of town males.

That well known mayor and police chief for what they are are gone now and maybe with the election coming up, the new mayor and police chief will maybe, do a better job resisting the forces dictating to them to facilitate, fund and encourage the riots and approach things in a different way, it appears that's the way it is. We can only

You cut off at "We can only"...
I assume you put "pray" or "hope" afterwords,... if something else, please continue.

Thanks
Joel

 

[trentbob]

You cut off at "We can only"...
I assume you put "pray" or "hope" afterwords,... if something else, please continue.

Thanks
Joel

Oh yes, I meant to say we can only hope.

 

[ladn]

Monitoring the local news media's radio channels (usually 450-451/455-456 MHz) and sometimes at the high end of VHF near the federal and rail frequencies, would be a good starting point. although many larger outlets are migrating to cell or other technologically advanced solutions. Aeronautical VHF, as @trentbob mentioned, can also be productive. Here in LA, 123.025 is one I watch, but know sometimes the airspace above large protests will end up being restricted (aka "91-91").

It's worth mentioning that the tech savvy protestors of today use cell phones and texting plus any number of messaging apps. The same for "the man".

That said, there's a log of Baofeng (and other CCR) radios out there, but as we frequently see here on RR, not a lot of radio savvy end users. It would probably be prudent to program the common test frequencies loaded in the CCr's from the factory.

While some municipalities encrypt their LE and fire radio traffic, local government channels/talk groups remain in the clear so there's a chance of picking up peripheral radio traffic from the folks driving the big trucks.

It all comes down to having a working knowledge of the local radio spectrum and being frequency agile enough to take advantage of all opportunities.

 

[trentbob]

Monitoring the local news media's radio channels (usually 450-451/455-456 MHz) and sometimes at the high end of VHF near the federal and rail frequencies, would be a good starting point. although many larger outlets are migrating to cell or other technologically advanced solutions. Aeronautical VHF, as @trentbob mentioned, can also be productive. Here in LA, 123.025 is one I watch, but know sometimes the airspace above large protests will end up being restricted (aka "91-91").

It's worth mentioning that the tech savvy protestors of today use cell phones and texting plus any number of messaging apps. The same for "the man".

That said, there's a log of Baofeng (and other CCR) radios out there, but as we frequently see here on RR, not a lot of radio savvy end users. It would probably be prudent to program the common test frequencies loaded in the CCr's from the factory.

While some municipalities encrypt their LE and fire radio traffic, local government channels/talk groups remain in the clear so there's a chance of picking up peripheral radio traffic from the folks driving the big trucks.

It all comes down to having a working knowledge of the local radio spectrum and being frequency agile enough to take advantage of all opportunities.

Actually with it looking like we are going to lose those unencrypted Citywide talk groups we have now and District dispatch there really isn't anything else except the 450 MHz news desks and the Choppers. They give coordinates not locations but you can easily go on ads b Exchange and see where they orbit to know where the action is.

In Philly we use 123.025 as a collision avoidance system, all helicopters when coming into Philly airspace announce their location and intentions.

Here in Philly we have two specific news helicopter aviation frequencies that the three or four choppers that might be orbiting a scene can coordinate with each other and they are very chatty with what they're seeing. It's unfiltered and directly from the horse's mouth. That's probably what I would end up relying on.😉

 

[MUTNAV]

Actually with it looking like we are going to lose those unencrypted Citywide talk groups we have now and District dispatch there really isn't anything else except the 450 MHz news desks and the Choppers. They give coordinates not locations but you can easily go on ads b Exchange and see where they orbit to know where the action is.

In Philly we use 123.025 as a collision avoidance system, all helicopters when coming into Philly airspace announce their location and intentions.

Here in Philly we have two specific news helicopter aviation frequencies that the three or four choppers that might be orbiting a scene can coordinate with each other and they are very chatty with what they're seeing. It's unfiltered and directly from the horse's mouth. That's probably what I would end up relying on.😉

I anticipate almost everyone going encrypted just when I need it, or find it interesting.

That's why I'd like to look at good alternatives.

Is there any easy way to find those news helicopter A/A frequencies for the DC metro area?

Thanks
Joel

 

[nd5y]

Is there any easy way to find those news helicopter A/A frequencies for the DC metro area?

Find out if the FAA has a helicopter route chart for the DC area. If one exists it might have other frequencies besides 123.025.

 

[RichM]

I would also add your local HEARN tg’s. Paramedics and aero med calling in to hospitals usually give a vivid description of what happened to the patient they are transporting. If I miss the original dispatch (non encrypted here) I can often find out what happened monitoring HEARN.

 

[trentbob]

I anticipate almost everyone going encrypted just when I need it, or find it interesting.

That's why I'd like to look at good alternatives.

Is there any easy way to find those news helicopter A/A frequencies for the DC metro area?

Thanks
Joel

Actually those frequencies are national news helicopter frequencies and you can try them anywhere.. news helo 1 is 135.875, news helo 2 is 135.975.

We use Channel 1 but sometimes when out of town choppers come in to cover a big story like the last riots that caused a lot of destruction and many fires they were using Channel 2.