Which Radio Freqs for Southern Wis?

[Dipole]

Hi, new guy here.

I have a couple of questions for you guys that know Wisconsin radio.

I’m interested in getting into public access radio; mainly for emergency situations when the grid goes down, but possibly as a hobby too. I want to get out 20 miles or so (from the base) if I have problems, and will use a mobile unit mainly, both mobile and as a base. [I know this distance is unlikely for a mobile (especially if there are no repeaters), and is dependent on terrain, but you’ve got to start with some kind of framework.]

What radio freqs do you run across when you are scanning in Southern Wisconsin? Do you run across CB (~27 MHz), MURS (~151-154 MHz), GMRS (~462-467 MHz) frequencies, or mainly the HAM freqs (probably 2 M and 70 CM)? I want something on which other people will monitor, but don’t necessarily want to spend $1000 for a HAM setup right now until I know more about what people are using already.

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

 

[RevGary]

From personal experience, our GMRS system here will cover a 30 mile radius using a 25 watt Kenwood TK-863 base and a 5.6 dbd gain Cushcraft antenna at 42 feet. Our mobiles are the same radio with Antenna Specialists 5.4 dbd gain antennas and we do NOT use a repeater, although we can hit a repeater 78 miles away if necessary from our base. We also have several TK-370G and TK-380 portables (4 watt) and have a portable to base range of roughly 11 miles. We use CTCSS tone, simplex, and have no issues with our communications within our county near Green Bay. The radios can be found on eBay or from local dealers and the FCC license can be obtained on-line for under $90.00 for a five year renewal. We are also licensed for a VHF (IG) itinerant (MO) station license for all of the US, for our Chaplain responses into natural disaster areas and our 50 watt Kenwood mobiles cover 35 to 45 miles mobile to mobile using larsen 3 dbd gain antennas and our 5 watt Kenwood portables get us about 9 miles portable to mobile. The IG class license is $105.00 for a 10 year renewal.

 

[Dipole]

Wow! I had no idea that GMRS would reach out that far without repeaters in Wisconsin. Although your antenn is up 40+ feet. In Southern WI (Green/Rock Counties) it's pretty rolling, so line of sight is limited; sometimes very limited.

My C&R's limit me on how high I can go up without "permission" (which is unlikely). And my house is at the base of a long South-facing slope with rolling hills to the West, East, and South.

I am not familiar with the "VHF (IG) itinerant (MO) station license". Can you give me more info?

If I could reach out that far using cheaper GMRS equipment than the more expensive HAM gear, it would be preferable.

 

[RevGary]

From Dipole: I am not familiar with the "VHF (IG) itinerant (MO) station license". Can you give me more info?

"IG" is the FCC classification for the 'Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional' - We have an "itinerant business license" ( licensed for the entire continental US ) for our Chaplain Responders who go into natural disaster areas in the upper midwest and into post hurricane devastation areas in Florida, Alabama and Mississippi to assist victims.

With all things being equal, VHF hi-band transmission distances are "not quite" double that of the UHF frequencies including GMRS. I say "not quite" because there are many variables.

(Just an FYI - The GMRS FCC Type Accepted equipment that we are using is NOT cheap. New Kenwood 25 watt mobiles are around $450.00 and the handhelds are just a bit more... at least the one's that WE chose are. We need reliability and range for use in areas where no cell towers are left standing and the power grid is down. We have several Kenwood mobiles and several Kenwood portables on both GMRS and in the VHF IG business bandspace. Do not confuse the commercial Kenwood equipment that we are using with the Wal-Mart and Radio Shack 2 to 3 watt handhelds...)

 

[XCheesehead]

Amateur radio in southern Wisconsin is great - I grew up in the area for 18 years. Milwaukee has several great repeaters - 146.91, 146.67, and 146.82 - and Madison has a few great ones, too - 147.15 and 146.88. These are great for emergencies, and make good company when you're bored at home. I have yet to find better amateur radio repeaters for conversations to participate in or listen to - and for emergency communications - and I have lived in Oklahoma and Colorado as well.

 

[Citywide6]

In Rock/Green, you might want to monitor 444.750 in Janesville. It's a repeater used by severe weather spotters (see www.midwestsstrc.org) and is often linked to 444.375 in Madison. They test it every Weds at 7:00 pm. Midwest SSTRC also has a business band frequency for Madison area members without ham licenses. They plan to add a business band frequency in Rock County in the future. Midwest is looking for more Rock Co members. If you join, they will ask you to take some brief spotter training and then will allow you to use the repeater. I can hit both ham repeaters with a five-watt hand held that cost me $100. Someone is almost always monitoring.

 

[kc9fnm]

Welcome to RR Dipole

If you want a service that is monitored by others, is also a hobby and will work during an emergency then amateur radio is the way to go. With your height restrictions and terrain issues the amateur repeater infrastructure that is already in place all over Wisconsin is your key to getting out and communicating. Keep in mind many ham repeater clubs and owners invest in battery, UPS, and generator backup power systems because they know their repeaters will be used during an emergency.

You didn't say WHY you wanted to get into "public access radio." This could determine which service would work best for you. Are you just interested in volunteering like many hams or like the Rev, are you already a part of a specialty group in which case an IG might work best.

GMRS also has its place but is not monitored or used as much as 2m/70cm ham. Different parts of the state seem more or less active on GMRS. I am both a ham and GMRS user. There are many GMRS repeater systems around the state and midwest. Check out http://www.laggroup.com for all your GMRS needs.

As the Rev also pointed out, a commercial GMRS radio isn't cheap but it’s also not a toy. For the price of a single band, limited channel GMRS radio you can get a nice dual band 2m/70cm ham radio. AND you don't have to find someone with the software and special cable to reprogram your ham radio unlike most commercial radios.

Don't forget your antenna either. A $400 radio on a $10 antenna is going to work like a $10 radio! Think weakest link and this applies to whatever service or band you use.

 

[SCPD]

Hi, new guy here.

I have a couple of questions for you guys that know Wisconsin radio.

I’m interested in getting into public access radio; mainly for emergency situations when the grid goes down, but possibly as a hobby too. I want to get out 20 miles or so (from the base) if I have problems, and will use a mobile unit mainly, both mobile and as a base. [I know this distance is unlikely for a mobile (especially if there are no repeaters), and is dependent on terrain, but you’ve got to start with some kind of framework.]

What radio freqs do you run across when you are scanning in Southern Wisconsin? Do you run across CB (~27 MHz), MURS (~151-154 MHz), GMRS (~462-467 MHz) frequencies, or mainly the HAM freqs (probably 2 M and 70 CM)? I want something on which other people will monitor, but don’t necessarily want to spend $1000 for a HAM setup right now until I know more about what people are using already.

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Dipole,

Hello. I think everyone has hit the nails on thier heads in answering your question. One for us....where abouts are you located or frequent? This could help in making a decision also. Ham radio is a good resource to have, as well as GMRS in Wisconsin as both services are well populated in this state. Spending money? Well, that is radio. Expect to spend some money....let us know more about where you are and what you need to do and we shall go from there.

And to Richard that shared the LAG Link...thank you...I appreciate it. Say hi on the radio sometime....



Chris Ebert, K9EKG, WPUC675
Founder/Coordinator
Lakes Area GMRS Repeater Group
www.laggroup.com

 

[Dipole]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the input so far. Sorry for my lack of response. I must not have my settings to notify me of responses to this thread.

Chris wrote:
" One for us....where abouts are you located or frequent? This could help in making a decision also. Ham radio is a good resource to have, as well as GMRS in Wisconsin as both services are well populated in this state. Spending money? Well, that is radio. Expect to spend some money....let us know more about where you are and what you need to do and we shall go from there. "

To answer your questions Chris, I live in Rock/Green county and go up to Madison every day. What I'm looking for is a multi-level approach to access communication in the event of emergency situations (e.g. severe or prolonged storm, pandemic, societal upheaval, attack by green martians) when the grid goes down, but possibly as a hobby too. My main, immediate concern is to establish local (5-10 miles) and regional (10-50 miles) modes, with long-range HF modes a secondary priority.

GMRS and 2M sound promising, unless the situation is prolonged enough that repeaters are no longer functioning.

So, I guess my immediate question is what frequencies are people using in Dane county and to the South [CB (~27 MHz), MURS (~151-154 MHz), GMRS (~462-467 MHz) frequencies, or mainly the HAM freqs] that will give me continued functionality without repeater power? I want something on which other people will monitor, but don’t necessarily want to spend a lot until I know more about what people are using already.

From the feedback so far, it sounds like VHF HAM freqs and UHF GMRS are prevalent, but do I need to consider HF if the repeaters/cell towers are out?

Thanks for your input.

 

[triryche]

From personal experience, our GMRS system here will cover a 30 mile radius using a 25 watt Kenwood TK-863 base and a 5.6 dbd gain Cushcraft antenna at 42 feet. Our mobiles are the same radio with Antenna Specialists 5.4 dbd gain antennas and we do NOT use a repeater, although we can hit a repeater 78 miles away if necessary from our base. We also have several TK-370G and TK-380 portables (4 watt) and have a portable to base range of roughly 11 miles. We use CTCSS tone, simplex, and have no issues with our communications within our county near Green Bay. The radios can be found on eBay or from local dealers and the FCC license can be obtained on-line for under $90.00 for a five year renewal. We are also licensed for a VHF (IG) itinerant (MO) station license for all of the US, for our Chaplain responses into natural disaster areas and our 50 watt Kenwood mobiles cover 35 to 45 miles mobile to mobile using larsen 3 dbd gain antennas and our 5 watt Kenwood portables get us about 9 miles portable to mobile. The IG class license is $105.00 for a 10 year renewal.

Just an FYI, from what I am reading on the FCC site, operation of that amount of power, use of those gain antennas, and use of those antennas at those hieghts are all violations of the FCC Regulations for a GMRS land station.



95.25 Land station description.

(a) A land station is a unit which transmits from a specific address
as determined by the license.

(b) The point from which every land station transmits must be within an
area where radio services are regulated by the FCC.

(c) [Reserved.]

(d) A small control station is any control station that:

(1) Has an antenna no more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground
or above the building or tree on which it is mounted (see 95.51);
and

(2) Is:

(i) South of Line A or west of Line C; or

(ii) North of Line A or east of Line C, and the station transmits
with no more than 5 watts ERP (effective radiated power).

(e) A small base station is any base station that:

(1) Has an antenna no more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground
or above the building or tree on which it is mounted (see 95.51);
and

(2) Transmits with no more than 5 watts ERP.

(f) Each base station and each control station with an antenna height
greater than 6.1 meters (20 feet) must be separately identified on Form
605. (See Secs. 95.25 (d) and (e) and 95.51 of this part).



95.135 Transmitter power limits.

(a) No station may transmit with more than 50 watts output power.

(b) [Reserved.]

(c) A small control station at a point north of Line A or east of Line C
must transmit with no more than 5 watts ERP.

(d) A fixed station must transmit with no more than 15 watts output power.

(e) A small base station must transmit with no more than 5 watts ERP.

 

[RevGary]

double

Your 'interpretation' is inaccurate. The tip of our antenna is 19 feet 6 inches above the building to which it is mounted, although we could be at 199.999 feet if we wished to do so, as a repeater site. The power limit in 95.135(A) is not ERP, but raw output power from the RADIO itself, otherwise they would have mentioned ERP in the regulations for OUTPUT POWER. ALL the commercial Kenwood radio equipment that we are using is type accepted for Part 95 GMRS usage. If these radios were not acceptable as supplied by the manufacturer, then they would not carry Part 95 type acceptance. There are NO regulations concerning GAIN from an antenna used with the radios that we have chosen and in the configuaration that they are being used in, otherwise reg's would be published limiting antenna gain specifically.

You are adding subparagraph (D) and (E) under 95.25 to the description of a land station. The land station description ends at subparagraph (B)... and 95.135(A) applies to specific details in 95.25 overall. I asked a lady in the FCC Licensing Division office about that just before we applied for the license and what I have mentioned here is exactly what I was told by her. Our system is installed, maintained and operated in full compliance with all FCC rules and regulations in effect on the date of our license issuance. I believe LAGGROUP will have some comments for you as well... They are operating GMRS repeaters with well over 50 watt ERPs as I have been told by a couple of their members.

Specific Issues from the COMPLETE GMRS REGULATIONS:

Sec. 95.51 Antenna height.
(a) Certain antenna structures used in a GMRS system and that are
more than 60.96 m (200 ft) in height, or are located near or at a
public-use airport must be notified to the FAA and registered with the
Commission as required by part 17 of this chapter.
__________________________________________________ _________

Equipment:
Sec. 95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has
certificated for use in the GMRS. Write to any FCC Field Office to find
out if a particular transmitter has been certificated for the GMRS. All
station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules
in part 95.

__________________________________________________ __________

Power:

Sec. 95.135 Maximum authorized transmitting power.
(a) No station may transmit with more than 50 watts output power.
(b) [Reserved]

__________________________________________________ __________

Permissible Communications:

Sec. 95.181 Permissible communications.
(a) A station operator for an individual who is licensed in the GMRS
(other than an employee of that individual) may communicate two-way
voice messages concerning the licensee's personal or business activities
(see Sec. 95.179).
(b) [Reserved]
(c) A station operator for any entity other than an individual
licensed in the GMRS may communicate two-way voice messages concerning
the licensee's business activities (see Sec. 95.179). An employee for
an entity other than an individual licensed in the GMRS may,
as a station operator, communicate two-way voice messages while acting
within the scope of his/her employment.
(d) A station operator for any GMRS licensee may communicate two-way
voice messages concerning:
(1) Emergencies (see Sec. 95.143);
(2) Rendering assistance to a motorist; and
(3) Civil defense drills, if the responsible agency requests
assistance.
(e) All messages must be in plain language (without codes or hidden
meanings). They may be in a foreign language, except for call signs (see
Sec. 95.119).
(f) A station operator may communicate tone messages for purposes of
identification or transmitter control in a control link.
(g) A station operator may communicate a selective calling tone or
tone operated squelch only in conjunction with a voice communication. If
the tone is subaudible (300 Hertz or less) it may be communicated during
the entire voice message. If the tone is audible (more than 300 Hertz)
it may be communicated for no more than 15 seconds at a time.
(h) A station operator may communicate a one-way voice page to a
paging receiver. A selective calling tone or tone operated squelch may
be used in conjunction with a voice page, as prescribed in paragraph (g)
of this section. A station operator may not communicate a tone-only page
(tones communicated in order to find, summon or notify someone).

__________________________________________________ ____________

 

[SCPD]

Okay, gents. Here's the scoop.

First, if you're gonna quote FCC rules, make sure you quote the portion that pertains to the discussion in its entirety. We have gone through great lengths to get accurate interpretations, which I will share with you. The FCC rules are often misquoted or misinterpreted, especially in Part 95. Lemme help!


Any GMRS BASE antenna must only be 20' above the structure to which it is mounted when dealing with bases. This rule does not apply to repeater systems. The 5-15 watt ERP only pertains to those stations which are North of Line A or East of Line C. You could mount your base upon the top of a building that is 4 stories high otherwise, as long as its not 20' above that. Rev. Gary's station fits that bill and he is fine.

GMRS power output is 50 watts TPO, not ERP. You could have 250 watts ERP with antenna gain just fine. They are concerned only with transmitter power output.

Control stations (those used to control a repeater) are to be kept at 5 watts, as well as operation on all of the interstitial frequencies. Antenna height applies as above.

Any questions?



Chris
Founder/Coordinator
LAG Group

 

[triryche]

Fully understood, thanks. I'm licensed for it; just never found a use for it.

So I gather the 20' height rule is to keep folks from using a tower for a base application?
Seems as though there's many ways around that such as using a barn silo or like you mentioned a 4 story building.

 

[SCPD]

Fully understood, thanks. I'm licensed for it; just never found a use for it.

So I gather the 20' height rule is to keep folks from using a tower for a base application?
Seems as though there's many ways around that such as using a barn silo or like you mentioned a 4 story building.

You should join our group, Mike. I think we have 2 or 3 machines in your area there....

As far as the rule goes, the FCC was on crack when they wrote some of the rules but who knows. We think it was to prevent people from using their repeaters as base stations because of the monitor before tx rule. Crack, for sure.

Oh well. Invite from me personally if you're interested.


Chris

 

[triryche]

I appologize for the quotes of the GMRS rules not being accurate, etc... wasn't attempting any accusations or anything but more so trying to find some foundation for some of the petty rules the FCC enforces on that band. I guess they have to though since it is pretty much a "free band" and could get out of hand otherwise.

Thanks for the offer..I would Chris but I really don't have room for any equipment that operates the band in my vehicle or at home for that matter. Roof real estate is pretty much filled to capacity with antennas and the mobile already has 3 rigs and 4 antennas. I wouldn't get much use of it anyway to be honest. I'm not much of an FM voice guy on the amateur bands either except for skywarn and public service. I mainly do SSB DX and contesting and dabble in the digital modes like APRS. My Kenwood D700 is capable of TX in the band if required for emergency but isn't type accepted therefore not used casually. If I travelled more to the south, I would consider it but as is any repeaters that would be of interest to me are far out of range.

 

[SCPD]

No problem! The offer is there....

 

[OpSec]

Dipole-

Who is it that you are wishing to talk to when "the grid goes down" ? You make mention of wanting access to some type of radio service, but you really make no mention of what intentions you have for using them.

It's hard to point someone in the right direction with such a vague question.

 

[Dipole]

Hi Stateboy,

Good question. To reach a proper solution, it's good to set some parameters.

Here's a hypothetical scenario for which I can envision needing radio access:

Winter in Wisconsin. An ice storm blows through the area followed by a widespread, prolonged blizzard with heavy snow and extreme temperatures. Power lines are down. The power outage lasts long enougn that telephone companies run out of auxiliary fuel for generators to power hardwire service and cell towers. The only communication medium working is radio using auxilary power.

Communication needs:
-health & welfare check on elderly parents ~15 miles away over typical Wisconsin rolling terrain
-be able to determine if/when power will be restored
-be able to determine if roads are passable and doctors are on duty (20-30 miles distant) if my pregnant neighbor decides to deliver
-be able to determine who has water stocked if my well pump won't work or if my water line freezes
-roving bands of mutant snowmen on skis attack the local C-store for hats, scarves and charcoal and I need to summon law enforcement, etc.

So, basically, my expected needs are health and welfare checks, determine the situation in a fairly local area, and possible summon LE or medical help.

On which frequencies in SC Wisconsin am I most likely to accomplish my goals given an antenna height limit of ~25 feet (and that in an attic to meet C&Rs)?

 

[OpSec]

Well, there are a number of issues with your scenario that need to be addressed.

1.) Just because you equip yourself with radios doesn't mean anyone else has or will. You would need to equip parents, neighbor and any other persons you wish to speak to with an appropriate radio infrastructure and subsequent license (if required). You will not be able to go to WallyWorld and buy the $40 bubble pack FRS radios to achieve what you desire. It will require something along the lines of a GMRS or amateur setup, but both of those require start-up capitol and licensing for all users.

2.) There is nothing you can do if these others do not wish to equip themselves with said radio equipment. If your parents or neighbors think your nuts and say no, then what? You will have a hard sell trying to get non-radio types to buy equipment, install antennas and maintain it just because you tell them it's a good idea.

3.) I think you have some lofty ideas. While I can understand where you are coming from, they are un-realistic in the real world. Buy a decent trunking scanner with P25 capability, program it with your local freqs and monitor the situation. You will not be able to summon LE or EMS help via your radio channels, since they will not be listening to them. If you got a amateur radio license, then you may be able to contact another ham out of your area who can establish contact via phone. If you don't wish to get a ham license, and are concerned about the ability to communicate with LE or EMS, then buy a sat phone that uses a ground relay in another state.

If you are concerned about roving bands of mutant snowmen looting then carry a pistol, baseball bat or crowbar to defend yourself while on your property. Remember that defending property will not justify using force, only the fear of death or substantial injury to your person or someone in your immediate vicinity.

If you have to wonder about a road being passable, it probably isn't and unless you own an H1 Hummer it will probably end badly if you try to drive on it. If you end up crashing, then you will be trying up other resources like EMS and LE when they could have been used elsewhere.

I don't think you are wrong for thinking about this, but it's not as easy as I think you are hoping it is.

 

[CrownVictoriaCop]

I'm not that good with radio stuff, but I would say GMRS. A lot of people scan that area a lot, because most of Milwaukee's frequencies are on there, including the police department.