Whole House Generator

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Mork

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Hi all

As apart of our emergency backup, I'd like to have a whole house generator w/ auto transfer switch installed. I'm looking at a 20Kw air cooled unit like the Cummins Onan RS20A. I wonder if any of you have any experience with Whole House units and what you would recommend. I am not hearing good things about Generac except from the people that sell them :) Size-wise I am pretty well set on 20Kw LP but brand???? and Installer???

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

BTW The HomeDepot installer never returned my calls, the Lowe's guys are also Generac only.
(Called the place in Canton however they were ridiculously expensive)
 

W2NJS

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Alll the Generac units are two-pole, 3600 RPM. You're better off with a four-pole, 1800 RPM unit if you can find one. I've found that a good source is a reputable electrical contractor who can buy and install the unit for you. And unless your demand is huge, a 14KW unit might do the whole-house job for you.
Look up NorPro who is located in CT and makes an 1800 RPM unit in, I think, 13KW form.

http://www.4norpro.com/pdfs/ALTERNATIVE FUEL/13AF.pdf
 
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kb0nly

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Definitely go with a 1800RPM unit. Less noise, engines last longer, etc. I have a 6500w portable wired to the house with a manual transfer switch, nothing fancy, but its saved me more than once now! One time was three days alone!
 

SkyPager

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Having just done this.....Before you buy or sign anything do three things.

1 -Determine the size of your natural gas meter. That is how many BTU can it supply per hour. This may or may not be shown on a data plate on the meter. A common size is 275,000 BTU/hr

2 - Determine the amount of natural gas used by the appliances in your home.
Oven / Stove
Furnace
Water heater
Dryer

3 - Total electrical load. Start with your main panel. What size is the main breaker, 100 or 200A?
If you go around calculating every light bulb, TV, computer hair-dryer etc you will quickly reach
25,000 watts plus. Remember these are volts x amps (VA) You need to account for power factor,
which will change this number.

A 20 kW Generac air cooled unit, will under full load, draw 294,000 BTU/hr of natural gas. So if your meter can only supply 275 BTU/hr you are down 19,000 BTU/hr. Add to that 120,000 BTU/hr for the furnace and 32,000 BTU/hr for the water heater. Calculating the TOTAL gas load is necessary to assume worst case condition. Dead of winter 6 days w/o power, you want to stay warm and not stink, or go hungry.
Your local gas utility will want you to up-size the street to house feed line and give you a new meter. This could set you back about $3000. Or you can install a seperate LP tank to fuel the generator.

The Generac 20 kW is 26" x 50", go get 15 1-foot square pavers and make a 3 foot by 5 foot pad that is level to place the generator on. Consult local codes for clearance from walls and windows. I bought mine from Norwall.com. You can PM me for more info.
MC
 

Mork

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Thanks Skypager but I have no access to natural gas. I think I mentioned
that in my post - LP only.

According to Norpro, no-one is making an LP 1800rpm 20KW unit now dues to emissions constraints.
He suggested I consider diesel since I have 2 330g home heating oil tanks already in place and could save about $2500 on the installation of a 500g LP tank. Unfortunately the diesel units are also twice the price just for the generator.

Generac is not a consideration, I'm reading way too many problems with their customer service.

Only considering Cummins Onan, Kohler, GE at this point. Units bigger than 20Kw are going to be too much hassle getting in place though I'd prefer a 36Kw and no "intelligent" switching.

As to load, we have 200A service, three 2 - 2.5Ton A/C units, electric kitchen and well pump, oil fired boiler w/5 circulators incl h/w. The thing is, no 2 HVAC units will be on during an outage, at the most just one, and in the winter, not a consideration.
 

W1KNE

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I've heard mixed things regarding the Kohler units. Check out Catapillar as well.
How close are you to Attleboro, MA? I would strongly suggest if you're looking for a solid unit, look at this company called Power Equipment Corp. They are on Frank McKay Blvd, we have one in one of our towers. Thing has been rock solid. It ran for 4 days without skipping a beat and the electronics running on it , seem to be good. They do servicing all over the place and would probably go into Connecticut.

Talk to a local electrician or two as well.
 

W2NJS

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I used to rep Kohler in the DC area. They are fine units, and at the time Kohler made its own alternators up to but not including 300KW, at which point they used Lima units. They tend to cost more than other guys' gensets, but usually their local reps are first-class service-oriented companies. I have a friend in Killingworth who runs a 20KW four-pole set powered by, I think, a Japanese Diesel engine, and the job was done by NorPro, so there are a lot of options available, but you have to shop carefully for them and let the seller know that you want something specific. There are a lot of companies who we used to call "assemblers" who mix and match alternators and engines and put the things together on a set of I-beams and sometimes these guys can outwit and outsell the big companies due to their greater flexibility in providing the exact product that's being asked for.
 

Confuzzled

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Thanks Skypager but I have no access to natural gas. I think I mentioned
that in my post - LP only.

According to Norpro, no-one is making an LP 1800rpm 20KW unit now dues to emissions constraints.
He suggested I consider diesel since I have 2 330g home heating oil tanks already in place and could save about $2500 on the installation of a 500g LP tank. Unfortunately the diesel units are also twice the price just for the generator.

LP will suck fuel and if you lose power due to a storm that blocks roads (trees down, snow, flooding), you'll have no way to get more. Even a 1,000 gallon tank won't last long of you're also using it for heat.

Diesel is much more plentiful, easier to get and easier to store. You'll also have space constraints and clearance requirements with an LP tank that you won't have with Diesel.

If you're only out for a day or two, you'll be OK with LP. If you're out for a week and you're in an area where the roads may not be cleared in that time, you may have a problem.
 

jim202

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I have worked for several cellular companies over the years and at one of them we threw out Generac. The National sales manager came to the company and asked why we no longer bought their generators. I asked him if I could go to the local auto parts store and buy a fan belt, radiator hose, fuel pump, starter motor or an oil filter. he said no, but the company had several warehouses around the country that were stocked and could ship the next day. Told him that doesn't do me any good when I have a major storm going on and the roads were basically shut down from the outside world.

Told the sales manager to come back when his company used off the shelf parts and not all special order. It cost him about 40 to 80 generators a year that we were putting out at new cell sites. He left sputtering to himself and never heard from him again.

The cellular companies I worked for seemed to like Katolight and Kohler generators. I ordered them with John Deer diesel engines and could get parts for them at just about any auto store I went to.

The reason we landed on using diesel was like others have said, you can get it almost any place. It is easy to transport. The only headache you have is to make sure you keep the fuel conditioner in the fuel tank for both hot and cold climates. That way you don't get fungus growing in the hot climates and the fuel doesn't gel in the cold climates.

I don't recommend placing any generator on a bed of paving blocks. Your much better off pouring a slab for the generator. This way you can bolt it down. That way the small units stay there and don't walk off in the middle of the night with someone that wants it better than you. The larger units use the slab to help kill the vibrations and it keeps them in one place.

If you do look at a diesel generator, the cost will be more up front. But you will be glad in the long run if you have to go hunting for fuel. It will transport nice in almost any liquid container. However I point out that you should be transporting the fuel only in an approved container for it.

Fuel is always an issue with any generator you plan on using. Figure out how much fuel it will use at full load over a 24 hour time span. Then multiply that by what ever number you need to fit your location. Don't forget that if the power is out, the local gas station probably won't have power to run his pumps either.

As for looking at running an air conditioner, look at the name plate where the power use is listed. There will be a locked rotor amp rating. This is what you need to get the compressor started. Generally it takes 3 times the normal running current to crank over the air conditioner from a cold start. Many have an option to add what is called a "Soft Start Kit" to it. Make sure you get that installed so the unit will start easier. Plus it helps to keep your power bill down some. It actually helps reduce the dead load starting current. Also ask about a time delay relay to be installed. This keeps the unit from starting up the moment the power comes back on.

If you have a well pump, don't forget to add this to the items that has to be powered by the generator. You can't live very long without running water in the house. You can deal with no hot water, but when the wife says there is no water to flush the toilet, your going to catch it big time.

There are a number of auto transfer switches on the market. If your looking to put in a full time backup generator for the house, I would look at adding a second breaker panel. Put all your emergency powered devices on it and have it on the load side of the auto transfer switch. This way you don't have to run around and shut off the breakers to locations and devices that you can do without to shed the total load from the generator.

You will have no problems finding an 1800 RPM generator in the larger sizes. It's the units below the 30 KW point that it's a roll of the dice. The reason you find the 3600 RPM units is that they are cheaper to make when they run at the higher RPM.

Here is one word of caution about the larger units and the engine speed. Generac likes to use a smaller engine on many of their units and run them through a gearbox. This allows the generator to spin at the 1800 RPM, but causes the engine to spin at 3600 RPM or more. I got suckered into this one time with a 100 KW Generac unit. Didn't see the specs on it until it was installed. It keeps the engine cost down, but it runs up the maintenance costs. You need to change the oil more often.

The other reason I shy away from Generac, is they use a real cheap voltage regulator. If it gets wet, you loose you regulation. Found this out on several high wind and heavy rain conditions. Had a generator running during a storm and suddenly the lights went out. Generator was still purring away, but nothing came out for power. Took a hot air gun and about half an hour of blowing hot air on the circuit board before it would work again. Had both a Kohler and a Katolight running beside the Generac and they both worked flawlessly.

Here is another heads up on an asperated engine running on either natural gas or propane (LP). The gas regulator inside the generator uses the normal atmospheric pressure to function. If you have high gusty winds or a tornado go by, the gas regulator looses it's mind and can't regulate the flow of the fuel correctly during these gusts. You either get too much fuel or too little. Either way, the engine will probable come to a stop. You crank it up again and your good to go till the next time.

Had the gas regulator blow my mind at a couple of cellular sites that would keep loosing power during a heavy gusty storm. It took a number of phone calls and talking with some people that knew the generators real good. You can't just bag the entire cabinet up like a shipping package. What we ended up was to block off the side vents nearest the regulators and relied on the end vents to provide enough cooling.

Then we had to deal with the mud wasps in the south. They seem to love the smell of the propane and natural gas at the regulators. They would build their nests in the vent holes of the regulators. The solution was to go to the auto store and buy some of the bronze fuel filters ans screw them into the vent holes. This provided the needed filtering to keep the wasps out and allow venting.

Never a dull moment in the generator field. Lets hear from others with their problems and solutions.

Jim
 

Mork

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Just as a quick update. I decided to install a 500 gallon LP tank and purchase the Cummins Onan 20Kw RS20A with all of the cold wx accessories and the 6869 SE ATS 200A .

Tanks in ground, waiting for the Gen Set to be installed.

Thanks to all who replied, much appreciated.
 

W2NJS

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Jim202's post above makes one particular point I really learned from. I had read recently that Generac was marketing 1800 RPM gensets, but I had no idea of how the unit really ran a 3600 RPM engine that was geared down to 1800. Twenty five years ago when I was selling and installing Kohlers no one in his right mind would consider a 3600 RPM genset for any commercial or industrial project; the higher-speed units just make too much noise, to start with, and if they're air cooled they have a definite tendency to go low on oil which is a problem you don't need during an emergency.
 

Thayne

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Another thing is if you are subject to local or county fire or building authorities. They often have regulations such as not storing or having too much fuel in a residential area.
If you are out in the boonies tou are probably OK.
 

W2NJS

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Thayne's advice is very good. Where I live (DC) gasoline gensets are not permitted; they must be Diesel, NG, or propane. Almost all of the commercial units that get installed at places such as apartment houses, office building, etc. are Diesel, and residences are almost always NG.
 

ny4i

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Question about running shack on the WH generator

I ran across this thread while researching an issue about the transfer switch. There seem to be some knowledgeable folks here that might be able to help me.

If I have a whole house generator with a transfer switch for all the breakers (I want to have all the circuits backed up), is there a way to isolate the ham shack so I can run it alone on the generator?

My case in point is Field Day E class where you are home, but on emergency power. I thought it would be interesting as a test to have the rest of the house stay on regular power, but be able to switch the shack only to the generator. But, other times, I want to transfer switch to handle the whole house.

This does not need to be automatic. I am fine with throwing a switch or breaker to isolate what breakers are on the generator.

Is this a reasonable idea?

Of course, I know I could just run a portable generator outside, but I thought it would be good to do an extended test a few times a year to ensure the generator is functions for many hours at a time.

Thanks,

Tom NY4I
 

Thayne

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Assuming your house is new enough to have a standard 200 amp service, you would have to have a 200 amp transfer switch if you wanted it to power the entire house. Generally units designed for residences come with another (Smaller) breaker box fed from the Gen--Then you remove only the loads you want to have powered all all times and feed them from the smaller box fed thru the transfer switch. It has to be this way if it needs to be inspected by the AHJ, but of course you can be more creative if no inspection is performed.
Just don't expect your 20KW genset start a 2 ton AC unit while running whatever else is on in the house.
 

ny4i

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When you said the smaller box is for the circuits powered all the time, I only want my one sub-panel to be able to be on the generator independent of the whole house. But, when we lose power, I then want toe transfer switch to feed the main 200 AMP service.

All things being equal, and using a simple switching analogy, I want a dpdt switch to switch my sub-panel (which my shack is on) from either the generator or the main 200 AMP panel. I guess that would be a seperate switch within a switch. A single manual transfer switch might be the answer.

Is that what you were thinking?

Thanks,

Tom
 

Mork

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Since someone asked me in a PM how the install went, I thought I'd offer the reply in case anyone else can benefit.


Well we like the generator set up just fine. Of course, since we had it installed we've not lost power at all.

Several caveats I learned through the process.

Cummins Onan dealers were ridiculously expense for the install. I did not use them.

Any E-1 contractor can do the install. I had them up size all the wiring by 2 sizes so as to prevent any voltage drop. I had them install the matching ATS from Cumminns. I bought all the equipment by internet from APelectric.com I bought the cold wx kit, battery warmer, air breather warmer and communications cable. Bought my own Cat 6 UV buriable cable.

They were told to do the install by the book. No short cuts.

After it was installed, I had the Cummins dealer come out to inspect it and do the start-up. Not doing so voids the warranty. So $650 to come out, inspect, run tests...takes about 4 hours.

The unit self tests every Saturday, runs for 20 mins, shuts down automatically. If we lose power this ATS fires the generator and switches over seamlessly. Hardly a flicker.

It's been almost a year and I haven't seen the propane gauge needle move.

Ran me about 6500 for the equipment, and 1500 for the install. The propane was about 1000 for the tank, 500 for the excavation and fill.
+ the 400 gals of propane...so about `12,000 total.

Above all, ITS QUIET! so quiet you can stand right next to it and have a conversation in a normal voice. I usually don't hear the self test unless I listen for it. It's 10' from my house.

Anything else I can offer?

Dr. Mark Levine
 

Thayne

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Sounds like you did very good as far as quality & cost.
I am a licensed EC (until Nov 2014- then totally retiring) and I have had the problem of parts availability over the years.
Only thing that saved me was being around so long that I knew a lot of people so I could usually get what I needed with a lot of BS.
I do have a 8 YO Generac 15 KVA that I run on propane, but the longest it has run is about 11 hours. Only problem I ever had was a voltage regulator, and after some arguing I did get it at a fair price. Also added a digital frequency meter & voltmeter to it and a remote stop switch so I can turn it off from the house if I don't want it to run without going outside to kill it.
I never worried about voiding the warranty because a guy at a cell site gave it to me for hauling it away.
But like everyone said it is much noisier than an 1800 RPM genset----
 

bobmich52

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I Recently Had A GE 13k Standby Generator Installed,Got Tired Of Pulling The Rope & Chasing Gas lol

816 sq ft cape I live in

120 gal propane tank Installed 4 $1300

Used Carefully, I Estimate The House Can Go 3/4 Days B4 Refill

$ 7,500 Total Install

Will Run Anything Easy, Has Load Shed Etc, General Common Sense Is That You Don't Run Everything Anyways, Still A Nice Feature 2 have

Since I Have well water & a Grinder Pump Rated @ 8,000 watts, Plenty Of k Capacity Left

Self Tests 4 20 min Ounce a wk

Has Run Breifly, Seamless Transition Between Cl&p/Gen

Best Was A Quick Power Outage, Back 2 Cl&p Within A Min All Good
So Far, So Good
 

Harryjr

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A bit off topic but there seems to be some real knowledge here.

Any comments about the Generlink that plugs between the meter and the house. Doesn't depend on a sub-panel for dedicated circuits.

Pro: You can use whatever circuits you choose as long as you don't exceed capacity.
Lower total install cost (?).

Con: It is picky about what generators it likes (requires a floating neutral?).
 
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