WiNRADiO now offers APCO P25 Decoder

[vince48]

Eric
You and Scott maybe the very few people in the US that may have the P25 software. I only heard of one other person in Iraq who purchased the software when it frist came out. Because of a lack of P25 action in his area, he could not report on performance. I almost pulled the trigger and purchased the software until I changed to Vista OS (that's another story) I have a 305i PE and the drift may explain why some of the communications sounded different than my PCR2500. Needed to adjust the frequency on some channels. I enjoyed the 305i on HF, but scanning was... quirky at best. I also encountered images on 200mhz band. Hope all works out for you Scott.

 

[KC1UA]

There is a Yahoogroup for WinRadio, located at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winradio/ .

Here is a comment from one of the owners of a G305E:

I own both Wr-1550e and WR-G305e. I highly recommend the
305e. My main reason is because the capability to decode digital
transmissions via the now released APCO P25 Decoder software. The
audio is so clean and clear I wish all transmissions sounded this
good. I am using a discone antenna on my roof which makes it easy to
receive all the local stuff and the 305e does really well on the HF
bands as well.

Here's another one:

Quoting winradio@yahoogroups.com:
> 1. APCO P25 decoder for the G305
> Posted by: "Martin Storli - LA8OKA" arcticpeak@... arcticpeak
> Date: Sun Jan 7, 2007 10:59 am ((PST))
>
> I don't know if this has been posted before, but anyway it should be great
> news for scanner enthusiasts in the US.
> http://www.winradio.com/home/g305-apco25.htm


It works and it works very well indeed. From the hobbyist viewpoint it should
become regarded as one of the best consumer-level decoders available to us.

I've used the Uniden P25 receivers and the AOR ARD25 - I'm presently testing a
late build of the Winnie decoder (for a Monitoring Times article) and it's
very, very nice. Audio quality is significantly better than the Uniden or AOR
devices can retrieve, the signal analysis is something that doesn't exist
anywhere else (that we consumers can access) and makes for a far more
informative scanning and traffic analysis session.

Sounds good from that angle, doesn't it? I read just about everything pertinent to the G305E in that group, and found virtually no negativity. It's not an overly active group, though. Google searches found nothing wrong. Someone at eHam.net didn't like the 1550e, but he was the only one with any negative comments. No reviews there on the G305E.

The above and more searching, combined with the software, is what convinced me to give it a shot. Clearly there's a wide range of thoughts and a wide range of performance thoughts. I'm sure much of it has to do with how it's used.

Australia is loaded with P25 activity. One would think they would have had some excellent resources to test with prior to letting it loose. One of the beauties of software is that it can be improved (or made worse) with updates. Maybe if we ***** enough at them and provide them with examples and proof, they'll step forward and do something to fix it. I've also heard a wide range of reports on their service, anything from "wonderful" to "horrible". I have made two inquiries of them and they have responded to both, albeit with a delay of a few days each time.

We shall see. I've sold stuff before. I'll sell it again if need be.

 

[KC1UA]

Here's something I missed during my original search, not sure how, but it's a review from Monitoring Times magazine on the 305. This is a pre-P25 review, but is overall favorable. The same person providing this review is the same person that made the second comment in my last post.

http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/mtfirstlook-wrg305.pdf

Of course, Monitoring Times is run by Grove Enterprises, a company that is a major distributor of Winradio products, so...

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

The problems I am having maybe a broken receiver. I tried the calibration procedure and it did not work. I sent a message and the WinRadio support person gave screenshots and example with more information. It still did not work so I sent back my wrg305.ini file and screenshots of it not working. If I can get calibrated then it may work okay after warmup.

I should join the winradio group and post my calibration problem there as well.

73 Eric

 

[SCPD]

So I feel I wasted my money on both the 305e and APCO P25 decoder and I should have just gotten a 303e or maybe the RF Space SDR-14.

I will recommend the SDR-IQ (not the -14) as soon as Moe delivers a proper SDK for working with the radio. He's done a great job with the software bundled with the SDR-IQ ... but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

I got the radio calibrated. There was a wrg305.ini file in the my documents/winradio/g305 directory as well as the windows directory. I was editing the one in the windows directory. I was actually able to use a few motorola control channels on the 935 MHz band to get it close to frequency. Now the decoder will decode and it does a good job. It is nice having the NAC, TGID, and radio id come up on the panel.

I have noticed the audio quality does vary a bit and it seems like it depends on the unit talking. I get the TSA at about an S7 and Lexington Police at about an S5 but Lexington has a lower BER and the audio sounds better.

The data and voice indicators seem to answer a situation I noticed. When I listened to NH SP on 151.400 I noticed brief keyups without any voice. I notice the data light goes on sometimes during the keyups so they are likely sending data over the frequency as well. NH SP is a weak signal but it does mostly decode with degraded quality. I read some information on P25 and the minor data bits are not error protected which explains why P25 tends to get robotic on weak signals. The performance on NH SP matches my experience using an Uniden P25 scanner to monitor 151.400.

I still do not like the requirement for razor sharp tuning of the P25 decoder. The NFM decoder will still work if it is several KHz off but the P25 decoder will only work within 400 Hz. It does not make sense on a radio that can drift as much as this one can.

I feel a modification coming on. I am thinking of seeing how easy it would be to put in a more stable 20 MHz oscillator. 50 ppm is the common accuracy and the receiver has a better 10 ppm oscillator. In a brief search it appears I could get to a 1 ppm level for about 10 to 15 dollars. I need to open the unit up and see what the oscillator is.

73 Eric

 

[vince48]

I second that regarding the SDR-IQ. Although I have the SDR-14, it is an incredible piece of gear.
Scott, Eric, not to beat a dead horse, but I too read all the reviews regarding the 305. Favorable they were, but in reality after purchasing it, waste of money. The firmware update you see on Winradio's website was from my complaints after a week purchasing my 305 regarding scanning. Even after the update, scanning was improved over the original version, but still quirky.
Even if you search the yahoo groups, you will find little mention of the P25 software other than querying of who has it. The ADS software was another donation of mine to Winradio. 

Anyway, Scott, Eric, I hope it all turns good for both of you.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

There are some receivers like the AOR8600 that are primarily VHF/UHF receivers and also does HF. I consider the G305e to primarily be a HF and DRM receiver that also does VHF/UHF. I got the P25 decoder just to see how it works on a soundcard based SDR.

I do not know the quirky things you ran across but in general receivers do not make great scanners. I did notice what looked like slightly longer frequency switch durations going from VHF to UHF on the decoder spectrum display.

I may be spoiled by my AOR 5000 (Thanks again Scott) but I do not have drifting problems with solid state receivers in the same class as the G305e, and below. Everything is a tradeoff and while the G305e has some neat features there are some shortcomings.

Some Broadcast Band Dxers in the BADX (Boston Area Dxers) group got the SDR- IQ and really like it. I have a USRP and use GNURadio to play with SDR. Again the USRP has better performance but the GNURadio software is designed as a SDR toolkit rather than a finished product. I did have fun doing a 1090 MHz Mode-S receiver with the USRP. The 8 MHz receiver bandwidth and 8 Megasamples per second rate required is something beyond the G305e, SDR-14, or SDR-IQ. The data rate is too high to use a soundcard to sample.

I think I will send some comments to WinRadio about the razor sharp tuning required for the P25 Decoder. My thinking is WinRadio must be using a fixed or a very limited range center point for the data "slicer". This could be corrected in the decoder software.

73 Eric

 

[KC1UA]

I'm gathering that this issue is not a problem with all of these radios?

I'm spoiled by the AR5000 as well. I have a 5000A+3 which is always on with my SDR-14, which I use exclusively for spectrum display. But, as stated before, I'll never use the Winradio as a scanner, it'll be used for tuning around, finding P25 NAC's, and running through search ranges will be as close to "scanning" as it'll get. I'll almost certainly use it for HF as well, as I have of late had a rekindled interest in what got me into the entire hobby in the first place. I need to re-do my wire antenna which got trashed in the remnants of Hurricane Noel.

I haven't bought the P25 software. Eric, you mentioned to me that it's tied to the radio by serial number. Can it be used on more than one computer? It's my intention to mainly run it on my main desktop computer, but I also want the capability of using it with a laptop and even possibly with a secondary computer in the radio room. I have no doubt that it'll work with the main software in that regard.

If the calibration problem seems to be an across the board issue, is it possible for you to post the procedure in this thread?

Thanks. I'm glad to hear you were able to fix your problem.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

I have the software installed on two computers. No Problem. The P25 decoder is tied to the radio and not the computer.

The help file and website detail the calibration procedure. I actually used some motorola control channels on 935 MHz and centered the data "plateaus" in the spectrum display. Another method would be to use the NOAA Weather and zero beat the carrier.

I think it will work good for finding NACs, etc. I am thinking of trying it on a P25 trunked system to see what data it will show. It does not decode trunking but there is an trunk indicator. I would also like to see if it works with unitrunker on P25 control channels using FM mode.

73 Eric

 

[KC1UA]

Well, I must say that this is an entirely different animal than what I'm used to.

A few oddities right out of the box:

1. When I'm using the APCO demodulator, and I switch back to the Professional, I am getting a high pitched whine on FMn signals. Eric, have you experienced this? On my laptop I was able to make it stop, but I'm not sure how. On my desktop thus far, I can't. What I have heard with P25 thus far sounds pretty good. Clearly there is a "warm up" time with this radio, which is ridiculous.

2. I thought it was mentioned somewhere that these radios will decode PL's and DPL's. Now I don't mean using the software to program a specific tone. I mean stopping on a signal that has an unknown PL or DPL, and finding and displaying the tone. I was under the impression that it did that out of the box. I notice that if I click on CTCSS it will display the proper tone, but unless CTCSS is also set to that tone, it won't decode it! I have it sitting at 62.5 on a freq with a known PL of 131.8. It displays CTCSS 131.8 but of course no audio because it's set to 62.5. Is there a way to have it decode CTCSS tones and still be able to hear the audio? Weird setup. I know I can use WinCTCSS, I tested that with my laptop, but it doesn't have DPL decode capability.

I also tested it with UniTrunker. It works fantastic. I was getting 97% or better out of the local MA State Police TRS. I'll play around with that some more in the near future.

P25 at the base is rather quiet right now, of course when I want to try this out. Other than the two issues above and having to get used to this funky squelch setup, so far so good overall.

Easy setup and as you stated no issue with installs on multiple computers.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

No problems with a high pitch whine. Make sure you are running the latest software. Also check that the setup did not turn on the microphone input as that can cause feedback.

The digital suite has an advanced audio signaling decoder that will decode PL only and does not affect the audio.

When I used the receiver with wtrunker I noticed sometimes the signal polarity would change.

73 Eric

 

[KC1UA]

I'm reasonably sure that the "whine" (aside from my whining) is a computer related problem. I absolutely can't decode P25 signals with my main computer. This is with two different sound cards also, an nVidia nForce on board sound card and an external Soundblaster Live 24 Bit USB device. If I connect the 305E to my laptop it immediatly works just fine decoding P25. On the main computer, the spectrum analyzer shows a signal that appears to be like that of WinRadio's screen shots, but absolutely no decode. This computer has been acting up a bit anyway and I'm wondering if something else is causing an issue. I'm getting very good decoding out of the laptop, but I don't want to have to use it full time.

The PL/DPL decoding method is I suppose acceptable, although I'm going to write them an e-mail and complain about it. If they can pick of NACS, and if they can decode PL's and DPL's after I click a button, they sure as hell ought to be able to display it all the time, especially with the audio capability of this thing.

Vince, this is why I bought an external model. If I had bought the internal and had the P25 problem...ever see a computer fly?

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

I would feedback to Winradio about the whine problem and other problems.

AOR AR8600 drift test

161.475 zero beat cw mode so about 800 Hz tone offset
50 Hz steps with 100 Hz display.
1:17 PM Power Supply turn on
1:18 PM AR8600 turn on
1:19 PM 162.47635
1:24 PM 162.47635
1:29 PM 162.47630
1:34 PM 162.47630
1:39 PM 162.47630
1:44 PM 162.47630
1:49 PM 162.47630
1:54 PM 162.47630
2:04 PM 162.47630

I tested the 8600 P25 board on Lexington police and the decoder decoded P25 when it was 15 KHz off frequency.

I suppose it not fair because the AR8600 is a $900 radio and the G305e is only $620. To match capability more the AR8600 (P25) is $1080 and G305e (WFM/P25) is $800. Still a $280 dollar difference. The winradio is smaller but that can accounted for by the moving of the display, controls, and audio to the computer.

I suspect the WR-G305e drift problem at room temperature is due to the reference oscillator being exposed to heat. Winradio could be using the microprocessor crystal as the reference oscillator and the heat generated on the microprocessor die is shifting the on-board oscillator. Another possibility is the reference oscillator is next to a linear voltage regulator. Dropping 13.8 volts down to 5 or 3,3 can generate heat although I do not notice the unit getting hot.

What is upsetting is that 1 PPM oscillators seem to cost $10 to $15 each. This means for even a $50 increase in retail price Winradio could have a decent receiver that is more than 10 times better. I assume the G305e is a scaled back G315e since they both have the same FCC ID. That means Winradio ditched an isolated 0.5 ppm reference oscillator for a 10 ppm one that is next to a heat source. I think they cheapened the receiver too much and made it perform like a $40 Science Fair Kit.

73 Eric

 

[KC1UA]

Well, I'm decoding on the computer I want to use now, and it's doing a good job. Eric, I think I was being victimized by the narrow decoding window you speak of combined with a radio that hadn't settled down yet.

I got it to work initially by running the Pro Demodulator. When I located a P25 signal I clicked on the AFC button, which of course tuned to what it thought was the center of the signal, and correctly so. I then switched on the APCO demodulator and had audio. I should have written the frequency difference down but of course I didn't. I think it was about 1500 Hz or so at that point. The weird thing is, when connected to the laptop during similar power up times, it worked fine and decoded right on the frequency it was supposed to. I wonder if it's possible that different computers might cause this to work different ways? That doesn't sound right to me, but as the buzzphrase goes "it is what it is".

I left the 305E on all day while I was out doing the usual Saturday stuff. Decoding seems right on the money right now with the correct frequency, and it sounds pretty good I must say. I'll just leave the damned thing on all the time if that's what it takes. It'll be interesting to hear how good it does with weak signals when there is a band opening to the north and I can try some NH P25.

Now that I know that P25 is functioning the way it should be I'm going to start testing out some of the other aspects of the radio, to include HF. I already have it working with UniTrunker. I didn't notice any polarity changes but I didn't have it running long enough maybe. I also am going to try it with SkySweeper Standard, which is an HF digital mode program that also has ACARS and AX.25 packet decoding capability. Might be interesting to see if it'll pass audio to that program also. I don't see why it wouldn't.

This is a big change from what I'm used to with regards to computer controlling a radio, but this is still the very early stages. Who knows what the future will bring? I am most certainly going to be adding to WinRadio's e-mail inbox though; that's for certain.

 

[TexScan780D]

It's my understanding that all of the P25 decoding is done in software for Winradio. I've had no experience with it, but the Icom IC-PCR2500's P25 option, despite the quirks of the radio, is outstanding. It is a plug in hardware board.

It is interesting that Winradio has managed to decode P25 entirely in software, and it makes me wonder if there are other possibilities along those lines.

Hay Scott,

I have been looking at the Winradio or the Icom IC-PCR2500 with the P25. I was wondering what kind of quirks the Icom IC-PCR2500 has?

Thanks!

 

[KC1UA]

The cellular block starts at 867.0000 which eliminates the majority of the current NPSPAC band (which ends at 868.9875). After rebanding it won't be an issue, but it's a serious one right now.

 

[KC1UA]

One of the nice things about having multiple receivers in the shack is that I can "experiment" like this with new gear. Most of the time my experiments with new gear work out for me. I change gear frequently because I like to try new things. This was one of the hardest receivers to research prior to buying.

I turned this receiver on again this morning and immediately experienced the drift we've been talking about. I had to fiddle around to get the P25 decoder to work, which it did of course. Then it mysteriously stopped working. I found myself having to restart the program, which made it work again.

Then I sat there and stared at the thing for a while...

Last night I thought things were going to be ok with this receiver. Now granted, I haven't been in front of it long, but from what I have seen I can tell that I'm never going to be happy with this receiver. I'm coming to the conclusion that I am more of a traditionalist with receivers, and I far more enjoy having hands on than the virtual approach of this radio and the Icom black boxes.

After corresponding with the seller, Archer Trading Post, I will be sending it back for a full refund (minus shipping of course). The gentleman that runs this establishment is top notch and was fantastic throughout the deal. I located him on EBay and I'd recommend him to anyone that is interested in a WinRadio receiver; nice price on a brand new receiver and a willingness to take it back without any hassles.

This setup, regardless of what receiver was in place, has always been the secondary position, as the primary one is the AR5000A+3 with the SDR-14. I'll probably take this money and go back to an Icom IC-R7000 or an AR3000A if I can find one with a 10.7 MHz IF output. Using the computer for unattended monitoring and recording of audio is fantastic; I think it's safe for me now to conclude that I've just never warmed to it with regards to tuning a receiver with it.

So, Eric, you were wrong about the 6 month period, and Vince, I wouldn't call it a waste of money; it just isn't comfortable for me to use between its problems and the oddities of the software. I really thought this software was wonderful when I demo'd it, with everything at my fingertips, but the telling tale is always with the actual use (DUH).

Experiment over. Onward and upward(?) I go.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

Well Scott I think you will be happier with another receiver.

For fun I looked up some frequency stability numbers for various receivers.
AOR 3000A 5 ppm @ -10 to 50 c
AOR 5000A 2.5 ppm @ 0 to 50 c
Icom PCR100 5 ppm @ 0 to 50 c
Icom PCR1000 3 ppm
Icom PCR1500 3 ppm
Icom PCR2500 3 ppm @ 25 c
Icom R7000 Frequency Accuracy .... ±10 x 10-6 or better. Frequency Stability ... ± 5 PPM < 25-999 MHz
Winradio G305e 10 ppm @ 0 to 60 c

Since I can not return my receiver I decided to open it up and see what was going on. It turns out the Winradio G305e is using the microprocessor oscillator and crystal as the reference oscillator. So as the processor heats up due to activity the frequency will drift. This would also explain why the radio can not be turned on for an hour before use to eliminate the drift. The processor is idling until it is communicating with the PC so it does not generate much heat.

The control board is a the same one as a G315e minus the TCXO and DSP. I can add a few components and a TCXO ( unlike adding P25 to the Japanese version of the R2500 ) and greatly improve the receiver. The G315e uses a 11.4 x 9.6 mm 6 pad SMD TCXO that appears to be a standard package and pinout. So I feel a mod coming on. I am going to see how much a 1.5 ppm TCXO will cost and if I can get a few 20 MHz samples.

73 Eric

 

[vince48]

Scott, Eric
I was really hoping the 305i would be a win win for both of you. The 305i did not work out for me. My purpose was scanning. I will let it go at that. Scott, thanks for the suggestion regarding the AOR 5000A. I'm having a blast with my SDR-14.