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Fire Dept Tests P25 Radios

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N_Jay

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The system was bid a while back, and anyone interested can probably find the RFP documents on line somewhere.

Of course I am sure the system design has evolved some since the RFP was written, but it is usually a good start to understanding what is coming.
 

fineshot1

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Sorry about my earlier omissions. The system will be P25 trunking. I can’t say for sure if it’s going to be simulcast in anyway and I’ll admit that I’m ignorant to what CAI means.

The issue of dispatch being able to monitor our simplex fire-ground channels has been one of the biggest items of contention here. Many people, all of whom are not firefighters, feel that it’s not necessary for dispatch to hear our transmissions; however there have been many documented cases of dispatchers hearing mayday transmissions before anybody on the actual fire scene. Anybody who’s operated on an actual fire ground understands that there is almost always WAY too much noise going on for on-scene people to hear every radio transmission. We try to fix this problem by wearing radio headsets and by bringing in a mobile command vehicle for incident commanders to operate from, but this isn’t always possible during the initial operational period. As a county, including City of Madison, we’ve all decided that we want the dispatcher listening to the operational channel and if they hear a may-day call, they are to alert command and sound the emergency tones. An additional $30,000 was approved to find a way to make this happen, but how exactly it’s going to happen, has the engineer type people doing some work.

One of the most active firefighters involved in radio evaluations is Ashley Strickland from the Indianapolis area. He became aware of our video and has since contacted us regarding testing he’s done and stuff he’s involved in with different vendors. It’s been quite an education to say the least. He’s shared a lot of great contact information and has given us some info on how to adjust our intra-department evaluation.

Our ring leader here in Dane County is Randy Pickering, Chief of the Fitchburg Fire Department. His knowledge of radios and technologies far exceeds my imagination. Other than picking radios for my firefighters to use, I’m not involved in any of the building of the new radio system. My chief, however, is on that committee and may have a few more specifics. Plenty of very competent people are working through our system design and implementation. Our little radio video isn’t even a molecule in a drip of water in the bucket which is this whole ordeal.

Brad A. Ingersoll

Well Brad it sounds like you folks are well on your way to getting a pretty new state of the art trunking
system and stick with the folks you mentioned in the know. CAI = Common Air Interface and its the
P25 trunking standard that does NOT have any vendor proprietary additions so it is a common published standard any vendor can market, sell and install for customers.

Not sure how big your county is and how many simplex fire ground channels you will have but giving
dispatch the ability to talk on them all across the county is gonna cause the folks who are engineering
this system a major headache and add a major amount of $ to the cost of its completion.

Keep us posted and let us know how things go for you as I am curious as to how it winds up.
 

12dbsinad

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Nice job on the testing. Too bad digital has a hard time beating analog... even though its antique. Heck, 2 tone paging or plectron paging has been around since the 50's so i hear. Its still an industry standard in this country for fd's. Its that way because IT WORKS, and works very well. Sometimes technology has a way of doing that. Replacing something that works to something that works, but maybe not so well. Otherwise this debate and testing wouldnt be happening, and we would all think its the best thing since sliced bread. Just my 2 cents!
 

911brad

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Well Brad it sounds like you folks are well on your way to getting a pretty new state of the art trunking
system and stick with the folks you mentioned in the know. CAI = Common Air Interface and its the
P25 trunking standard that does NOT have any vendor proprietary additions so it is a common published standard any vendor can market, sell and install for customers.

Not sure how big your county is and how many simplex fire ground channels you will have but giving
dispatch the ability to talk on them all across the county is gonna cause the folks who are engineering
this system a major headache and add a major amount of $ to the cost of its completion.

Keep us posted and let us know how things go for you as I am curious as to how it winds up.

This system will be covering all of Dane County in south central Wisconsin. The state capital, Madison WI, is in Dane County. Geographically we are the largest county in the state, and have the second highest population. Only Milwaukee County has more people. Currently we have three repeated channels and two simplex fire channels which can be used to communicate with dispatch via satalite recieve sites around the county. From what I understand we'll have three on the new system.

For what it's worth, we plan to do more videos of testing. Specifically we learned of some more issues that surfaced at the big radio show in Las Vegas (where parts of our video were shown) that we want to address. We are probably going to be getting some more radios, and adjusting our meathods to try and make more people happy with the results. We also learned that we may get to attend the big NIST test that's coming up.

I'll let everyone know about any progress we make.

Brad A. Ingersoll
Maple Bluff Fire Department
 

radioman2001

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I hope that you consider NOT using digital on fire ground channels. Dispatch,command, call in are ok, and water source maybe ok for digital, depends how you use them. I personally wouldn't use any digital mode made by any manufacturer for any use that has any background noise, whether it be a diesel engine screaming at 4000 rpm for pumping, an air alarm on an airpack, or 2-cycle power tools. Hopefully the FCC has seen the light on analogue frequencies for firefighting fire ground use, and won't push the 6.25kc digital in 2020.
As far as monitoring Fire Ground operations, all it takes is a LOT of remote receivers at a LOT of the tower sites. I read somewhere recently that FDNY has started doing just that, and sending the information back on a talkgroup on their new trunking system. The only difference is they are still analogue.
 

911brad

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I hope that you consider NOT using digital on fire ground channels. Dispatch,command, call in are ok, and water source maybe ok for digital, depends how you use them. I personally wouldn't use any digital mode made by any manufacturer for any use that has any background noise, whether it be a diesel engine screaming at 4000 rpm for pumping, an air alarm on an airpack, or 2-cycle power tools. Hopefully the FCC has seen the light on analogue frequencies for firefighting fire ground use, and won't push the 6.25kc digital in 2020.
As far as monitoring Fire Ground operations, all it takes is a LOT of remote receivers at a LOT of the tower sites. I read somewhere recently that FDNY has started doing just that, and sending the information back on a talkgroup on their new trunking system. The only difference is they are still analogue.

All fireground simplex communication will be analog VHF. We already have the tower sites, it's just the equipment that needs to be updated. They have estimated coverage in the upper 80% range on the simplex VHF side, which is far better than it currently is. There will be over 90% on the digital side from what I'm told.

Based on our tests I'm not so quick to discount the abilities of the noise cancellation abilities on the digital side. I'm not sure if you watched the video or not, but our test did feature me talking with the pump running at 150 psi behind me continuously. The radios didn't do too badly in digital for that test, but they often did better in analog. We have done a lot of the same tests pictured in the video from radio to like radio with power saws running, extrication tools operating and numerous types of PASS alarm. The results shown in the video are all consistent with the results of those tests.

A few manufacturers have noticed our video, and like I said, we will be doing another video. We may be getting radios with some tweaking done to the programming and firmware, and we are still considering how to have a non-bias receive site for our test.

The other monkey wrench that we are trying to figure out how to throw into the mix is the use of a lapel speaker mic. It's very rare in the fire service that we don't use one on our radio, however there are so many out there that it's hard to have a test like we've done be even close to valid without having one of each kind. We’ve found out that the APX radio only picks up and filters audio from the speaker mic when it’s attached, whereas on the Harris multiband radio the speaker mic, AND the two mics on the radio are all still active with the two radio mics acting as the primary background filters. This was a very interesting development and has us working to try and get a Harris radio for testing. The problem is that APX radios are already out there (we own three) and the Harris radio is very difficult to come by and not being shipped yet.

Perhaps some of our testing will give the NIST people some ideas for their big test. I'm crossing my fingers that we can find a way to go out there and be involved. Heck, we just want to watch!

Brad A. Ingersoll
Asst. Chief
Maple Bluff Fire Department
 
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N_Jay

Guest
. . . .the P25 trunking standard that does NOT have any vendor proprietary additions so it is a common published standard any vendor can market, sell and install for customers. . .. . .

Sure it does! What else do you think the $MFID field is used for in every transmission? (Its the manufacturer ID so that manufacturers can support proprietary stuff ;) )

More correctly:
It may or may not depending on how it is implemented.
 
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N_Jay

Guest
Hey pot, don't call the kettle black. Perhaps he has good reason for his feelings? Neither of us was there so maybe we don't know...?

Excuse me?

1) please find the post where I am showing anything near this level of ridiculous bias.
2) I stand by my position that anyone who caries such a bias probably should not be involved in "testing".
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
Whatever, /\/\Jay.

:D

Well that answers my question quite clearly. :roll:

BTW, maybe you missed the posts where I supported fair treatment of OpenSky.

EDIT:
Hey, I just noticed that you have NOTHING (Zero, Zilch, Nada) to add to this thread except your attack on me.:evil:
(Probably should have just reported it, but that is not my style)

Seems you have a little BIAS showing also.:lol:
 
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justice1776

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Southeastern CT
NEWS: Dropped radio calls put firefighters in danger

From News Article:


The International Association of Fire Fighters is now recommending fire department not use digital systems in fires.

"Radios are the most important piece of safety equipment a firefighter has," said Richard Duffy, assistant to the president of the international union. "If you can't communicate on the fire ground, you put yourself and others at risk."

Broxterman's parents are suing over the fatal fire, naming in the lawsuit among others, Motorola.



Dropped calls put firefighters in danger | cincinnati.com | Cincinnati.Com

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100114/NEWS01/1150368

Dropped radio calls put firefighters in danger | Daryl Jones' Weblog
 
N

N_Jay

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This has been well discussed.

Just as a note, be careful using Daryl Jones blog as a source.
He is very biased and prints a lot of wrong information as long as it fits his bias.
 

ILMRadioMan

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The road to no where.
From News Article:


The International Association of Fire Fighters is now recommending fire department not use digital systems in fires.

"Radios are the most important piece of safety equipment a firefighter has," said Richard Duffy, assistant to the president of the international union. "If you can't communicate on the fire ground, you put yourself and others at risk."

Broxterman's parents are suing over the fatal fire, naming in the lawsuit among others, Motorola.



Dropped calls put firefighters in danger | cincinnati.com | Cincinnati.Com

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100114/NEWS01/1150368

Dropped radio calls put firefighters in danger | Daryl Jones' Weblog

Ugh, agreed on all points.

http://forums.radioreference.com/co...pment-lead-cincinnati-firefighters-death.html

That is the discussion about cincinnati.

Daryl Jones fits his whims.

Be careful.
 

Baylink

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I would like to take a moment here to pat Brad on the back. While some of the posters in this thread may not be entirely happy with his department's protocol for *testing radios*, he's been doing a really good job of replying to everyone's comments without wigging out, which is not always easy -- and I say that as someone who's been on Usenet since 1983. :)

Good job, Brad, and we look forward to more on how your tests turned out (I note that the last posting on this was in March; I'll assume you've done the further testing you had in mind?)
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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I would like to second the fact that Brad and his guys took on this challenge instead of standing back and waiting for someone elese to provide guidance, It appears that their initiave has made them a lightning rod for vendors to really want to help (help in this case=sell radios). It looks like they will get better treatment and have more info, which might make a difference in getting something that works vs works well. Analog already is interoperable...............................TT
 
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