Remaining scanning benefits if Public Safety is encrypted...
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slicerwizard
Member
Citation required.
paulears
Member
Yep - pretty much this is it! My understanding of our OFCOM's process is that they do take action against anyone transmitting without a licence where their action cause concern, but since OFCOM took over from the old Radio Agency, they've not taken action against any listener that I'm aware of. Pirate radio, intentional interference with business and emergency services, all have prosecutions and just recently they have temporarily shut down an amateur repeater where there was a complaint of abuse by a user.
The present situation seems a happy balance. We don't have approval to use scanners, but equally the Government don't actually Police it. It gives them the scope to choose to take action on individual cases as the law still exists.
RADIO PEOPLE - Don't read any further, as it's just English history for you US folk to laugh at us.
We're quite good at not using laws in this country. We often don't repeal them.
Here are a few good examples
'willfully and wantonly' disturb people by ringing their doorbells or knocking at their doors - that would be tricky in the US on Trick or Treat day.
Some others for the amusement of US folk
Carrying a plank of wood along a pavement
Flying a kite or sliding on ice or snow whilst in the street
Entering the Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
Dying in the Houses of Parliament
Keeping a pigsty in front of your house - unless duly hidden
Erecting a washing line across any street
Beating or shaking any carpet or rug in any street. However, beating or shaking a doormat is allowed before 8am
In London, using public transport (knowingly) with the Plague
Handling a salmon in suspicious circumstances
Being intoxicated and in charge of a horse or cow
Firing a cannon within 300 yards of a dwelling house
Gambling in a library
Removing a dead whale found on the British coast - since it automatically becomes the property of the ruling monarch
For a pub landlord, allowing drunkenness in their pub
In Scotland, turning someone away if they knock on your door and require the use of your loo
Allowing your pet to copulate with any pet from the Royal House
Importing into England potatoes which you suspect to be Polish
Finally, as of 1998, causing a nuclear explosion
Some of these thing happen - the Whale one fairly recently, when a number of large whales beached themselves on the the UK, Dutch and Belgian coasts. The stretch of water between high and low tide lines belongs to the Queen - and of course is where anything coming ashore lands, meaning that in years gone by, any wreckage and valuable items would belong to the Crown, and anyone taking it would be guilty of a crime - handy in the 1700's, but a problem when the local authorities wanted to remove the whales - they needed to seek permission! The law also applies to Sturgeon - but oddly the Queen's Receiver of Wrecks (yes, somebody still holds that position) doesn't offer her the whales, still DOES offer her sturgeon!)
We do sometimes abolish things - up until 1901 we had a Royal Household position called Groom of the Stool, and most of the people were Sir, or Lady. Google this one and be surprised!
We also have a strange one in that all swans belong to the Queen, so unless you get invited to dine with Her Majesty, killing and eating one is a £5000 fine and a period in prison!
The present situation seems a happy balance. We don't have approval to use scanners, but equally the Government don't actually Police it. It gives them the scope to choose to take action on individual cases as the law still exists.
RADIO PEOPLE - Don't read any further, as it's just English history for you US folk to laugh at us.
We're quite good at not using laws in this country. We often don't repeal them.
Here are a few good examples
'willfully and wantonly' disturb people by ringing their doorbells or knocking at their doors - that would be tricky in the US on Trick or Treat day.
Some others for the amusement of US folk
Carrying a plank of wood along a pavement
Flying a kite or sliding on ice or snow whilst in the street
Entering the Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
Dying in the Houses of Parliament
Keeping a pigsty in front of your house - unless duly hidden
Erecting a washing line across any street
Beating or shaking any carpet or rug in any street. However, beating or shaking a doormat is allowed before 8am
In London, using public transport (knowingly) with the Plague
Handling a salmon in suspicious circumstances
Being intoxicated and in charge of a horse or cow
Firing a cannon within 300 yards of a dwelling house
Gambling in a library
Removing a dead whale found on the British coast - since it automatically becomes the property of the ruling monarch
For a pub landlord, allowing drunkenness in their pub
In Scotland, turning someone away if they knock on your door and require the use of your loo
Allowing your pet to copulate with any pet from the Royal House
Importing into England potatoes which you suspect to be Polish
Finally, as of 1998, causing a nuclear explosion
Some of these thing happen - the Whale one fairly recently, when a number of large whales beached themselves on the the UK, Dutch and Belgian coasts. The stretch of water between high and low tide lines belongs to the Queen - and of course is where anything coming ashore lands, meaning that in years gone by, any wreckage and valuable items would belong to the Crown, and anyone taking it would be guilty of a crime - handy in the 1700's, but a problem when the local authorities wanted to remove the whales - they needed to seek permission! The law also applies to Sturgeon - but oddly the Queen's Receiver of Wrecks (yes, somebody still holds that position) doesn't offer her the whales, still DOES offer her sturgeon!)
We do sometimes abolish things - up until 1901 we had a Royal Household position called Groom of the Stool, and most of the people were Sir, or Lady. Google this one and be surprised!
We also have a strange one in that all swans belong to the Queen, so unless you get invited to dine with Her Majesty, killing and eating one is a £5000 fine and a period in prison!
The USA has plenty of stupid, obsolete laws still on the books. Here's a sampling if you want a laugh:
The Craziest Laws That Still Exist In The United States | HuffPost
The Craziest Laws That Still Exist In The United States | HuffPost
This is late and pertinent to the conversation early on regarding EMS - HIPAA laws may drive encryption by protecting the identity of people's health issues.
GlacierClipper
Member
Those were great times for radio monitoring back then.
Reminds me of a comment a Drill Sgt made concerning being in the Army and making decisions. "Seasons change and you need not wonder why it is done this way."
Eventually in time the hobbyist will have to start looking for a new hobby. The world is always changing for better or for the worse. Look at what side you want to look at it from.
We all have been screaming back and forth about Encryption and this is the "good ole days now".
Take it for what its worth now and don't worry about tomorrow or the next day. Enjoy the moment.
Just program in your own mind that what we are listening today is the best of what we got now and tomorrow is not guaranteed. Over a period of time all of these systems that are in the clear will one day be gone. Some earlier than others.
When you look back in 5 to 10 years from now you will want to be back here. With technology growing so fast and beyond any control at this point Encryption is going to plague our world. Look at the terroist people they are using Encryption to their benefit now.
And my last 2 cents will be that one day in the future our whole world will be crippled because everyone will be locked out of everything due to these security encryption that everybody is all paranoid over. I can bet the farm on it.
We all have been screaming back and forth about Encryption and this is the "good ole days now".
Take it for what its worth now and don't worry about tomorrow or the next day. Enjoy the moment.
Just program in your own mind that what we are listening today is the best of what we got now and tomorrow is not guaranteed. Over a period of time all of these systems that are in the clear will one day be gone. Some earlier than others.
When you look back in 5 to 10 years from now you will want to be back here. With technology growing so fast and beyond any control at this point Encryption is going to plague our world. Look at the terroist people they are using Encryption to their benefit now.
And my last 2 cents will be that one day in the future our whole world will be crippled because everyone will be locked out of everything due to these security encryption that everybody is all paranoid over. I can bet the farm on it.
paulears
Member
Protection, and in the UK Child Protection specifically is driving encryption in a speedy manner. I replacing a lot of kit in schools because they mention specific names, and personal circumstances which are not meant to be public. Privacy is one thing (and never treated that seriously, world wide), but safety and protection of rights is another. If you do not have to tell a new employer any of your medical history, buy right - as is the case here now, disability discrimination being pushed heavily, then any messages concerning the protected people could be released to people who shouldn't know! Schools, colleges and now even businesses have these safeguarding policies. I've even heard it extended to the shop delivery people. As in, somebody buys an expensive home electronics item, and the message goes out to hold the delivery until after 3pm, as the home owner will not be there, or even where they can find a key hidden for access - that kind of thing. If the home is burgled, was it their message intercepted that gave away the access information? It will only get less easy, that is for certain.
I doubt it. HIPAA has nothing to do with radio work. Pre-hospital, nothing protected should ever be transmitted over the radio or phone.
paulears
Member
Sadly, however, it is - a 37 year old male with history of drug and alcohol abuse etc etc etc - even without the name, in the case of some road accidents, the newspapers may carry the names of the people involved, and putting two and two together makes at least an interesting story - but would appear to break confidentiality rules, at least here!
No it’s not anywhere. That is not covered under HIPAA. Just because the info may be released by non covered entities, doesn’t make the releasing of info a HIPAA violation. As long as anyone involved with the health care aspect of the call doesn’t release info without permission of the subject, you’re good. The police releasing info isn’t a violation, the news releasing info isn’t a violation, the family, etc, isn’t a violation.
goodmore
Member
All crap put to the side my opinion is that the good old days of scanning are over. Encryption killed it. My county is going encrypted with police very soon. I have been looking and monitoring for alternative things to listen to. If you are interested in garbage trucks, yard jockeys, school bus drivers, retirement homes, country clubs, and of course factory workers then there is good news for you. But make no mistake about a few things. The conventional analog systems are going the way of the dinosaurs. NXDN and DMR systems are taking over. My local P25 system sounds like crap on a scanner. So listening to fire and ambulance is an option but a lousy one. A G5 was very much in my future before police announced encryption. What an I going to do? Keep the TRX 1 for emergencies and the occasional satisfaction of listening addiction. Combined with a Watson 881 it does quite well at pulling in signals in my area.
That is not a privacy violation, as that does not contain any personally identifiable info. If a third party, such as a newspaper, releases the name, the legal responsibility, if any, falls on them. It has nothing to do with the limited info broadcast in the radio call.
Not quite true.
It is only the Mute Swans that belong to the Queen. Other less common swans found in the UK do not fall under Royal jurisdiction/ownership.
Having said this the Mute Swan is the predominant swan in the UK.
a29zuk
Member
Boy, Mute Swans and encryption in the same thread! They are the same thing, right? 
Jim
Jim
Boy, Mute Swans and encryption in the same thread! They are the same thing, right?
Jim
LOL! In a way, they belong in the same thread. With enough encryption in use, the scanner bands will eventually sound like Mute Swans.
scanmanmi
Member
Amen Bro. I used to listen to the Chicago agencies follow people and you would never know you were being followed. They had cars on different streets surrounding the target and if you turned right a different car would follow and if you turned left you got a differnt one!
goodmore
Member
Disasters
Are these hurricanes and tornadoes along with massive flooding ammunition that we in this hobby can use to keep encryption from keeping us uninformed? Sure would be nice to have information to assist in evacuating or even helping your fellow man.
Are these hurricanes and tornadoes along with massive flooding ammunition that we in this hobby can use to keep encryption from keeping us uninformed? Sure would be nice to have information to assist in evacuating or even helping your fellow man.
lindsay34654
Member
Encryption
Years ago the departments came up with trunking. No one could monitor them with a regular scanner. Bingo the scanner people came up with a trunking scanner. The departments went to digital DMR and so one. Guess what the scanner people came up with a scanner for that. I have been in scanning since 1963 heard it all seen it all. you think the people going to lose out on all the money that they make from selling scanners to let something like encryption beat them. Think about it.
Think on this chicken little the sky is not falling. you can cry wolf all you want. and the hobby will be here long after you are gone. There are more things to worry about in this world then listening to the locals.
Years ago the departments came up with trunking. No one could monitor them with a regular scanner. Bingo the scanner people came up with a trunking scanner. The departments went to digital DMR and so one. Guess what the scanner people came up with a scanner for that. I have been in scanning since 1963 heard it all seen it all. you think the people going to lose out on all the money that they make from selling scanners to let something like encryption beat them. Think about it.
Think on this chicken little the sky is not falling. you can cry wolf all you want. and the hobby will be here long after you are gone. There are more things to worry about in this world then listening to the locals.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ
Yes they are. Two reasons for this
1. It is illegal to decrypt encrypted transmissions not intended for the person receiving it.
2. In order to decrypt an encrypted transmission you need not only the encryption key, but a device to do the decryption, neither of which scanner manufacturers will get or include in their hardware.
Unless you work for the agency you want to listen to, and have a reason to have the key, you are NOT going to get it. AES encryption is air tight. You are not going to brute force it with all the time left in the universe. Game over.
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