Viking stun and kill

[otobmark]

Looking for details about all levels of Viking (VP8000 in my case) disable/kill including how it's done and undone on conventional and TRS.
Also, if I have multiple agencies TRS systems as well as conventional in the same radio, can all of them "KILL" the radio or only "STUN" the use of their system, leaving remaining systems in the radio functioning. Since I own most of the radios I use, I would like to always be able to recover use of my own radio regardless of the actions of the various systems in my radio. I don't care if system owner disables only his system in my radio as long as I maintain control of the radio itself and can remove all traces (ESK etc.) of the "dead" system with no harm to my radio. As I'm just beginning to use multiband radios it is becoming more important that no one but me can "kill" my own radio. As said before a system owner (agency) stunning/disabling only their system in my radio (or team radio) is desirable since probably all agencies (Public Safety) insist on some way to insure a stolen or rogue radio cannot continue to access their system or be copied. SAR/USAR deployments can be anywhere in the country and sometimes visiting teams are given access to the local TRS for duration of event. No one would want that temporarily loaded TRS to be able disable team radios or anything in the radios other than the temporary/local system. I've seen radios with multiple systems from 3 states and wonder if the owner of the physical radio can be the owner of the full function of the radio and not be locked out of his own radio by any of those systems.
I'm an individual owner of the gear I use which is somewhat unusual, but I'd think my concerns would apply to any agency or department that has systems they don't control in their radios.

 

[kd4efm]

Short answer console command. More later

 

[kd4efm]

I'm one who would turn it on, period.

Consoles are the generally the only station that can stun or kill radios, other than blocking it from the system (kill the UID and or esn and UID). There's other ways also, but by industry standards, most used means.

 

[otobmark]

On the issue of kill how do “I” unkill?
on issue of stun what is actually stunned? Active system only or all systems? And again how do “I” unstun?

 

[kd4efm]

Hey Mark, again console command. Kill wipes radio, and locks it down, kwd, you would have to program it with the original codeplug to return to active state, as I recall.

 

[AM909]

Good points/questions. Answers might vary depending on which stun / kill / inhibit method is chosen. A quick look back at KPG-89, for example, found stun ability in the DTMF signalling, inhibiting either TX only or both TX and RX, and uninhibiting*** using the same code followed by a "#".

I think I've seen some extended Fleetsync and/or MDC-1200 options for this purpose, too, maybe in KPG-DxN.

Armada mentions "inihibit" in this context in several places.

Motorola APX CPS help makes it sound like its stun is radio-wide, requiring the user enter a password to un-stun the radio.

My feeling is that, unfortunately, given the complexity and the way the manuals are written, the only way to know is to experiment. Hopefully, the days of bricking a radio beyond our ability to revive it are past.

*** Not sure how it's supposed to receive the uninhibit code if it's not receiving, so I guess they probably meant that it mutes the RX audio only. Hopefully. :|

 

[otobmark]

What’s been said so far suggests that the industry has not kept up with the reality of more and more radios containing several disparate systems where any of them can kill a radio they don’t own (On purpose or by accident ). The true radio owner (individual or agency) should have an ultimate restore capability perhaps allowing or mandating for the systems to be zerotized out leaving radio ready to receive new plug. Again I recognize the necessity for a system owner being able to kill their system in a (your) radio but they should not by default be able to kill a (your) radio. In legal jargon it is a “taking”. The Industry assumption is that radios are only on the system(s) that owns the radios.
Looking through all the data I can find there is the suggestion that through ESK options there is the ability to knock down one specific system while leaving the remaining systems active. Of all the system administrators on this forum, do any of you have any need at all to kill another agencies radio IF you can kill your system in the radio? I wouldn’t give anyone the ability to remote kill my SCBA, my seatbelt, or my life vest so why would I let anyone kill my radio?

 

[mmckenna]

The Industry assumption is that radios are only on the system(s) that owns the radios.

Well, that is exactly what the FCC rules say. Any radio on the system is the responsibility of the licensee. Any individual adding their privately owned radio onto someone else's system without the approval of the licensee is violating that rule.

I think its set up perfectly, especially after having some people try to add radios to my system...

Of all the system administrators on this forum, do any of you have any need at all to kill another agencies radio IF you can kill your system in the radio?

Easy way for me to do that is to kill it in the system so it can no longer access it. I likely wouldn't stun or kill a radio on a trunked system when I can just remove its access.
In some applications, I can see the need to outright kill the radio, especially if it shows up somewhere that it does not belong. No reputable shop would add a radio to someones system without all the approvals well documented. That should prevent this sort of situation.

Almost seems like the argument is for people adding radios to systems they don't have authority to be on being somehow protected from getting busted.

I wouldn’t give anyone the ability to remote kill my SCBA, my seatbelt, or my life vest so why would I let anyone kill my radio?

Goes back to the FCC rules about the licensee having responsibility for all radios on their system. An individuals private radio should not be on a system unless you've got it all approved. If that is the case, and all the rules are being followed, then there's no reason for it to be killed/stunned.

If it happens by accident, it's easy enough for them to send the command to undo the stun.

 

[mmckenna]

§ 90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.​

(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.

 

[otobmark]

Again, no argument made for kill on another’s radio, only stun (or exclusion) by system administrators on their system.
Suppose I have 3 separate radios with only one of them on your system. You would not presume the right or have the ability to brick the 2 radios not on your system. It follows you shouldn’t have the ability to brick any part or band of a single radio not on your system. I might want to give my home system power to kill (not likely on my personal gear, stun only). When not on your system (disabled by whatever means from system in question) the system licensee has no liability for my subscriber radio at all, hence not violating any fcc rule.

With system key management policies I know about, no one can just put themselves on anyone‘s system without being allowed by AHJ over system. If I’m operating (affiliated) on your system you are the boss of what I do only on your system and you should be able to terminate that access, hopefully without jeopardizing my or others physical safety (ongoing rescue). You shouldn’t even have the capability to knock me off other systems (Conventional or TRS). Mmckenna has given a reasonable solution and I suspect there are more, especially on new systems with site access using encryption keys etc.

My desire is to have a kill proof radio that can support the stun or kill of any system by owner in a way non destructive to every thing else in the radio and that i subsequently can remove all traces of the disabled system.

My use of “you” and “your” is generic to any administrator, not posters. I am not a trunk system programmer and at most I might be asked to organize zones.

 

[mmckenna]

Again, no argument made for kill on another’s radio, only stun (or exclusion) by system administrators on their system.
Suppose I have 3 separate radios with only one of them on your system. You would not presume the right or have the ability to brick the 2 radios not on your system. It follows you shouldn’t have the ability to brick any part or band of a single radio not on your system. I might want to give my home system power to kill (not likely on my personal gear, stun only). When not on your system (disabled by whatever means from system in question) the system licensee has no liability for my subscriber radio at all, hence not violating any fcc rule.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. However, I think it's really a fringe case. Probably not something that comes up very often. Stunning only certain parts of a radio can make sense, but it's probably not an easy solution. In other words, on a conventional system, how do you tell it which channels to stun?

Really easy to avoid all this, of course. Responsible users following -all- the FCC rules and having proper authority/permission from radio systems owners shouldn't have an issue with any of this.

Where I see this being a bigger issue is someone setting up a radio on a system that they have no business being on. My sympathy sort of runs into a brick wall in cases like that...

Trying to remember the last time we console-killed a radio….

On the other hand, removing a radios access to my trunked system was done about 3 weeks ago due to a lost/stolen/missing radio….

With system key management policies I know about, no one can just put themselves on anyone‘s system without being allowed by AHJ over system. If I’m operating (affiliated) on your system you are the boss of what I do only on your system and you should be able to terminate that access, hopefully without jeopardizing my or others physical safety (ongoing rescue). You shouldn’t even have the capability to knock me off other systems (Conventional or TRS). Mmckenna has given a reasonable solution and I suspect there are more, especially on new systems with site access using encryption keys etc.

Yeah, makes sense on trunked systems where I can block individual radios easily.

On the older Motorola SmartNet/SmartZone type systems, it was easy for people to hack a system key and take someone else's radio ID, so just blocking a individual radio wasn't always a solution, it would either kill both radios, or the person would just snag another valid radio ID. Killing the radio from the console was a good solution.

Again, a legit user wouldn't face this issue.

And then you have the guys that NAS a system and screw it up where they take an existing radio ID and FUBAR things up. Killing a radio like that is a good solution (and strongly encouraged since people that do this sort of stuff have earned it).

My desire is to have a kill proof radio that can support the stun or kill of any system by owner in a way non destructive to every thing else in the radio and that i subsequently can remove all traces of the disabled system.

Yeah, an issue on a conventional system.

I try to imagine what the guy at Motorola/Harris/Kenwood/Tait would say. Probably something to the effect of:

"Why would a responsible adult program in a bunch of different systems into a radio, and then go and do something stupid that would get their radio killed by the console?"​

​

I know, not the scenario you are talking about, but it's the conversation I'd imagine in my head.
Getting features like this for fringe cases added to a radio firmware package is probably going to be a challenge. Usually you either need to make a really good case, or you need to have a lot of radios (money).

Modern trunked systems handle these sorts of things easier. Conventional systems, not so much. This sort of access control is why some go to trunked systems, though. Easier to keep the problem people/baofengs/MARS-CAP modded hammy radios out of the systems.

Since we are probably all mostly talking about MDC1200, I think the way to do this is not set up MDC on those systems. I ~think~ that would work.

My use of “you” and “your” is generic to any administrator, not posters. I am not a trunk system programmer and at most I might be asked to organize zones.

No problem, I get it.

 

[WB5UOM]

Maybe the question should be (to those system admins on here)
I have my own radio, will YOU allow me to be on your system?
Then, very likely, you would be told what hoops would have to be jumped to get on said system in the 1st place
-or- isnt this morr or less academic?

 

[mmckenna]

I think it depends on exactly what sort of "system" the individuals are talking about.

Trunked System?
Conventional System?

Two different scenarios that I can see.

Responsible and approved user shouldn't have an issue here.
Irresponsible and/or unapproved users get the "F*** around and find out" treatment. In other words, an administrator killing your entire radio is similar to the FCC finding out and laying some smackdown on your operations:

 

[otobmark]

For me, it probably comes down to the fact I have no implicit trust in government at any level. I do trust my team. Whether it’s the CDC or my mayor none have earned my trust. Most bureaucratic government employee types are blue pill people. Bigger issue.

On the industry issues I think people in the field are not given enough voice on solutions.

 

[AM909]

Most of FCC law was enacted at a time when you mostly used one transmitter with a handful of channels for one "agency". Now, we have entities that have legitimate need and MoUs-in-place authorization from multiple licensee agencies and commercial entities to use their systems, and we can conveniently do it with a single device. It's not as fringe as some might think.

If you get into a pissing match with your dispatch provider and they decide to stun/kill your radios, there's no legitimate reason that should extend to other systems on those radios, which you own and pay to maintain. It is, indeed, a "taking".

 

[mmckenna]

I trust the professionals I know that run the radio systems.


I do not trust those few hobbyists that think that they have some sort of right to have unrestricted access to any radio system they can program into their e-Bay special/CCR's. Or those that don't understand why we have enforceable FCC rules. I'm personally sick and tired of hearing about those that hack into radio systems and put others lives at risk. (not directed at you).

Like I said above, my sympathy runs out pretty damn quick when we get those that I linked to in the documents above.
It shouldn't be up to system administrators, law enforcement or the FCC to try and figure out what the issue is with these types of people. At some point their "adult card" needs to be taken away, including drivers license, benefits, etc. Send these losers back to kindergarten day 1 and make them start from scratch. Shouldn't be up to others to try and figure out which day in school they missed where they taught people to cooperate and not cause issues.

 

[mmckenna]

If you get into a pissing match with your dispatch provider and they decide to stun/kill your radios, there's no legitimate reason that should extend to other systems on those radios, which you own and pay to maintain. It is, indeed, a "taking".

I can pretty much agree with this, as long as it involves responsible adults acting like responsible adults.

When it turns into hobbyists/whackers, and those others, I think the FCC enforcement bureau needs to carry around large sledge hammers to take care of those that are unable/unwilling to play nice.

Think of it as "pinning the coax" in a bit stronger form.

 

[jeepsandradios]

This is what an MOU is for. The MOU would explain the policy or procedures in use on said system.

What your worried about is actually more a radio issue and not a system issue. Unless I'm missing something the "stun" or "kill" feature is radio wide. While I see your point (although not saying I agree) the radio doesn't know its stunning just one system.

 

[mmckenna]

This is what an MOU is for. The MOU would explain the policy or procedures in use on said system.

Right. A good MOU in place and responsible users and this likely becomes a non-issue.

A trunked system where the individual radio gets voted off the island is the solution.
A conventional system where an MDC command kills the entire radio is an issue.

But I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the scenario where an approved public safety users on another agencies system would get themselves in a situation where their radio would get remotely killed. That's where my "fringe scenario" comes in.

What your worried about is actually more a radio issue and not a system issue. Unless I'm missing something the "stun" or "kill" feature is radio wide.

It would be.

While I see your point (although not saying I agree) the radio doesn't know its stunning just one system.

Right, kind of what I suggested above.
On a conventional system, killing just a few channels would require the radio knowing exactly which channels were on which system. Maybe killing the zone is the solution. Comes down to radio manufacturers figuring out a way to do this without screwing up something else in the radio.

 

[otobmark]

while nuanced, I’m believe we are all actually in agreement broadly speaking. I’m filled with hope! 😎