Tinfoil hat conversation? Carrington Event?

KE9BXE

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I’ve learned that hams know a tremendous amount about RF and are especially fond of CW. I looked around ham forums and couldn’t find much on the Carrington Event or storing radios in faraday cages.

I’d love to know if anyone has researched natural electromagnetic events or prepared for them? What about man-made equivelants?

For minimal money, I threw a few baofengs, multimeters, batteries, and flashlights into a faraday bag. I figured if such a phenomenon happened communication and cooperation would be impaired in the short run. Hams, what say you?
 

GlobalNorth

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If someone drops a High Energy EMP nuke in the upper atmosphere, everything from around LF, through MF, HF, VHF, UHF, and much of SHF is going to be unusable for hours to days, contingent upon the yield.

ELF and VLF work, but the data rate is incredibly slow and the upper SHF and EHF require a lot of cutting edge tech to work.

You'd be better off with semaphore flags or an Aldis lamp.
 

KE9BXE

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All fair points, but what about these two things specifically?

1.) For your local community, is it worth having a stockpile of protected radios to distribute if a communications failure occurs?

2.) The Carrington Event happened in the 1850s and the only impact was 7 years of telegraph repairs. Are we due for another such event in the next 20-50 years?
 

nd5y

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1.) For your local community, is it worth having a stockpile of protected radios to distribute if a communications failure occurs?
Failure for how long?
How are you going to recharge the batteries?
Who do you plan to talk to?
"Break break break FRS channel 1! Please help me! I need food and water! I have a stash of gold coins and bars to pay for it!"
What use will that be when there is no electricity, fuel, food or water?
 

W2JGA

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Knowing trades is far better than gold, money and radios.

Stockpile how-to books on everything from gardening, hunting, carpentry and the list goes on. Go watch the movie "Red Dawn", the first one.
 

trentbob

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So is this discussion about EMP from a nuclear bomb or is this discussion about the Carrington event of the 1850s.

The reason the only damage was to Telegraph was that was the only electronics they had, if an event with a solar flare was to happen on that level today, would there be a lot more damage to electronics or are today's electronics protected better?
 

KE9BXE

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Failure for how long?
How are you going to recharge the batteries?
Who do you plan to talk to?
"Break break break FRS channel 1! Please help me! I need food and water! I have a stash of gold coins and bars to pay for it!"
What use will that be when there is no electricity, fuel, food or water?

About 4 years ago there was good communication during civil unrest. The call to action was certain elements had burned Minneapolis to the ground and they were marching across the bridge to WI. Somehow the word got out and the county sheriff and a pseudo-militia of armed farmers stood at the WI side of the bridge. The unruly mob was repelled and they went back to burning down the Twin Cities.

Since we're gearing up for national "burn cities down" month, also known as "presidential inauguration season", the point would be to have radios available to rural farm communities that may need to protect their lives and property in the event of a communication blackout combined with overflow of civil unrest.

Sounds far-fetched of course, other than this has happened already but with the good fortune that cell phones worked to notify the communities so they could respond to a threat. I thought radios might be a prudent option for rural communities to have a backup plan to check in with neighbors that could be experiencing arson, looting, or robbery.
 

GlobalNorth

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US_Air_force_E-4B.jpg


The E-4B Nightwatch costs ~$250,000,000 a copy and costs $160,000 an hour to operate. It serves as a radiation resistant command post during nuclear conflict. One is assigned to the Secretary of Defense and may act as AF1. It is not H-EMP proof.

A couple of Baofengs in a Tommie Copper bag, inside an old microwave, is highly unlikely to make it.
 

mmckenna

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A couple of Baofengs in a Tommie Copper bag, inside an old microwave, is highly unlikely to make it.

I agree.
I don't know much about EMP, but I know some consumer grade metal bag probably isn't the answer. It's a great sales gimmick to get money from those that are concerned about such things.

If it was me, I'd want something more substantial on all fronts:
Actual layers of hard metal and well sealed. Looking at some of the EMI sealing I've seen on equipment, just to keep the low level stuff inside and not getting out, it's pretty well thought out. Trying to keep the EMP out is going to need something much more substantial in my view.

And I'd also want something better than a $19 radio if things really did go wrong.

But if this really happened, playing radio would be really low on my list of priorities. I'd be looking after family, friends and neighbors. I don't need radios for that.


DHS/CISA has some guidance on this. Their lowest level of protection includes "Faraday bags", but they have some recommendations about what kind and how they are used. They recommend removing antennas and wrapping everything in layers of overlapping aluminum foil. It says microwave ovens can be used if they are actually tested to completely block RF.
 
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trentbob

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So is this discussion about EMP from a nuclear bomb or is this discussion about the Carrington event of the 1850s.

The reason the only damage was to Telegraph was that was the only electronics they had, if an event with a solar flare was to happen on that level today, would there be a lot more damage to electronics or are today's electronics protected better?
I posted this in this thread and was ignored, I guess nobody has the knowledge to answer.. but I wanted to post it again in case anyone is intelligent enough here to give a reply, if not... well there you go😅😅😅 .
 

KE9BXE

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I posted this in this thread and was ignored, I guess nobody has the knowledge to answer.. but I wanted to post it again in case anyone is intelligent enough here to give a reply, if not... well there you go😅😅😅 .

The Carrington Event wiped out US telegraph lines. It took 7 years to repair them. Since it was the 1860s, it was a minor inconvenience at best.

An EMP attack (e.g. blowing up a nuke in the ionosphere) would have a devastating effect on the covered area. Most infrastructure is not EMP resistant. Only about 20% of all financial servers have an EMP protected backup (e.g. you have no money, you can’t prove you ever did). The military takes this threat quite seriously because it would be hard to determine the threat actor so retaliation may not be possible. Their models suggest in an orchastrated attack, tens or hundreds of millions would die in such an impacted region. Major transformers would take a decade to bring back online. No water pumps. No fuel pumps. Cars made after the mid-1970s are busted. Etc.

Interestingly enough, such an attack via nuke would have minimal to no lethal radiation to organic life, nor would it damage any buildings.

Not sure if that’s what you wanted to know, but there ya go.
 

nd5y

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I posted this in this thread and was ignored, I guess nobody has the knowledge to answer.. but I wanted to post it again in case anyone is intelligent enough here to give a reply, if not... well there you go😅😅😅 .
Find out if the equipment you are concerned about passed EMP and ESD testing.
If the manufacturer doesn't do tests or doesn't even know what it is then the answer is probably no.

When I worked for a cellphone manufacturer over 20 years ago we had to do ESD (electrostatic discharge) testing on new products to make sure the design would pass when they were sent to the testing lab. The idea was if you walked on a staticky carpet and touched your phone to a grounded surface the discharge would not fry your phone. I don't know if that is still required or what other consumer electronics products require it. I don't know if that relates to EMP in any way.
 

trentbob

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Find out if the equipment you are concerned about passed EMP and ESD testing.
If the manufacturer doesn't do tests or doesn't even know what it is then the answer is probably no.

When I worked for a cellphone manufacturer over 20 years ago we had to do ESD (electrostatic discharge) testing on new products to make sure the design would pass when they were sent to the testing lab. The idea was if you walked on a staticky carpet and touched your phone to a grounded surface the discharge would not fry your phone. I don't know if that is still required or what other consumer electronics products require it. I don't know if that relates to EMP in any way.
Thank you for your knowledgeable reply but you absolutely didn't even approach answering my question. I am not putting radio equipment away in in case of a nuclear attack or
 

trentbob

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Find out if the equipment you are concerned about passed EMP and ESD testing.
If the manufacturer doesn't do tests or doesn't even know what it is then the answer is probably no.

When I worked for a cellphone manufacturer over 20 years ago we had to do ESD (electrostatic discharge) testing on new products to make sure the design would pass when they were sent to the testing lab. The idea was if you walked on a staticky carpet and touched your phone to a grounded surface the discharge would not fry your phone. I don't know if that is still required or what other consumer electronics products require it. I don't know if that relates to EMP in any way.
Thank you for your knowledgeable reply but you absolutely didn't even approach answering my question. I am not putting radio equipment away in Faraday cages in case of nuclear attack. I do have ample supply of 9 mm bullets which would be used to barter for food and water as we would all certainly need to protect what we have.

Again for the third time I will put my question out there. If we were to have an event like the Carrington event of the 1850s that did Wipe Out the only Electronics there was which is Telegraph would our Electronics today be well enough protected so that the entire system wouldn't break down. We have had plenty of solar flares with little effect, is that what would happen or would a solar flare of that power wipe us out. Once again guys, can anybody answer the question LOL.
 

mmckenna

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Once again guys, can anybody answer the question LOL.

I think you got your answer.

Which was: No one knows.


I'm sure there are those large research facilities that could model this. I have no idea if that information is out there for the public to see. I can think of one lady that probably would have been able to provide an intelligent response, but she doesn't hang around this site anymore. DHS/CISA has some guidance, if one wants to look at it.

Fear from preppers doesn't check the boxes for accurate knowledge in my world. It's fear. Making decisions based of fear usually is good for the first few seconds. After that, it's going to take more than ammunition to survive. Ammunition and stupidity just add up to more stupidity.

A -lot- of IT infrastructure relies on fiber optic cable, which could possibly survive.
AT&T knew how to build systems back in the day that were survivable.
Power is the big issue. This is where microgrids can shine.

Distributed systems, infrastructure, power, data storage, communications, all might be the thing to look at. Personally, I won't be burying supplies in my back yard anytime soon. If something like this happened, maybe I don't want to survive it.

If I did survive, I'd survive just fine without my radios. I've got other interests.
 

trentbob

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The Carrington Event wiped out US telegraph lines. It took 7 years to repair them. Since it was the 1860s, it was a minor inconvenience at best.

An EMP attack (e.g. blowing up a nuke in the ionosphere) would have a devastating effect on the covered area. Most infrastructure is not EMP resistant. Only about 20% of all financial servers have an EMP protected backup (e.g. you have no money, you can’t prove you ever did). The military takes this threat quite seriously because it would be hard to determine the threat actor so retaliation may not be possible. Their models suggest in an orchastrated attack, tens or hundreds of millions would die in such an impacted region. Major transformers would take a decade to bring back online. No water pumps. No fuel pumps. Cars made after the mid-1970s are busted. Etc.

Interestingly enough, such an attack via nuke would have minimal to no lethal radiation to organic life, nor would it damage any buildings.

Not sure if that’s what you wanted to know, but there ya go.
Thank you for your intelligent reply and no that is not what I'm asking. I will repeat it for the fifth time, This Thread is not about EMP caused by a nuclear attack this is about the Carrington event of the 1850s. It was a major solar flare and yes it's common knowledge that it did wipe out Telegraph systems, the only Electronics we had. If we had cars would they run? Would our radios work if there were radios then? In other words to ask my question in a different way, would a solar event like the Carrington event affect our Electronics today as advanced as they are or would we be totally unaffected. Would we be wiped out like telegraph was.

Again this has nothing to do with a nuclear attack or EMP which would appear to be off topic according to the header of the thread. I do understand the question about Faraday cages protecting radios from a solar flare as strong as the Carrington event in the 1850s.
 

trentbob

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No one knows.

Well thanks for your answer, at least you answered the question being one of the most intelligent people here on the Forum!

I am not a prepper myself other than to have adequate canned food and water on hand in case of natural disaster like flood or weather related.

I do have an ample supply of ammo to barter with Bullet by Bullet, those who are not armed will lose whatever they have very quickly as it will be stolen from them.

I actually thought somebody here would have the knowledge to give at least a informative opinion to my question. Especially with regard to is our equipment today sophisticated enough to survive a solar flare of the intensity of the Carrington event. Nobody even has a guess? If we have some type of event like this the last thing in the world I'm worried about is a radio or talking with somebody on a radio and comparing how bad things are where we are LOL.

Thanks for at least answering my question.
 

mmckenna

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Thank you for your intelligent reply and no that is not what I'm asking. I will repeat it for the fifth time, This Thread is not about EMP caused by a nuclear attack this is about the Carrington event of the 1850s. It was a major solar flare and yes it's common knowledge that it did wipe out Telegraph systems, the only Electronics we had. If we had cars would they run? Would our radios work if there were radios then? In other words to ask my question in a different way, would a solar event like the Carrington event affect our Electronics today as advanced as they are or would we be totally unaffected. Would we be wiped out like telegraph was.

Same answer applies.
Since that happened in the 1850's and the technology to understand it/measure it didn't exist, science would be trying to recreate it based on recorded history, and maybe some biological data left behind.

Recorded history of the event is probably a bit sus as there would be a lack of knowledge on the subject at the time.

So, using what we know now, and using large computers that can run lots of large simulations quickly, they can probably get pretty close to recreating it, then deciding how it would impact current infrastructure.

Since we do not have control over an event like this, the best we could do is guess at what the next one would be like, and design accordingly. I'm positive that the sun could throw out something large enough that anything we tried to do as mortals to protect against it would be laughed off.

In other words, it's going to happen again. "How big" is the question.

We've had smaller events, and there has been impact. Utilities/military/government/industry has learned from those. Some infrastructure gets upgraded. Some infrastructure gets isolated/broken up so an event wouldn't impact everything.

Case in point, look at how the national power grid is designed. It's not one huge interconnected grid. It's broken up into smaller chunks with DC interties between them that can prevent some issues. You may absolutely see large chunk of the country get blacked out, but there are means in place to keep it from spreading.
Ways of shunting that extra impulse energy to ground exist. Same thing is used to protect against lightning strikes.

IT infrastructure uses fiber, as I mentioned above, so an event might impact the copper wire parts of the system, like POTS or cable TV, but the truth is that those copper links are only "last mile". Damn near everything is fiber now. The old AT&T/CLEC switching centers were mostly built to be survivable in the event of a nuclear blast. I know, you are not asking about nuclear, but the same principals apply.
The way the internet works, it doesn't rely on just single routers/single paths, there's lot of interesting topology involved that helps isolate faults (usually). Sure, there would be some impact, but the 'system' has quite a lot of capability to reroute traffic around problems.

So, telephone and internet might absolutely be impacted, but it may be just regional. Some areas might be out for a long time, but it would eventually get restored.

Power would be the big concern. But while the system is fragile, restoring parts of the system would be possible, and might happen fairly fast. I think the issue/concern would be "how fast".
Again, microgrids, local renewable energy, all those things are good. I had a coworker that was one of the first Tesla owners I knew. They had the car, plus a substantial solar array at their home, plus a large battery system. Most of the time she would charge her car off stored solar power at night. During the day, the battery system would recharge, plus have enough excess energy to supply her home. That was a good solution that didn't rely on a gasoline pump working.

As for "internet" and big data, I think the bigger issue is that everyone wants it for free/cheap. Getting cheap/free means you take some risks.

Any good data center would have redundancy. Not only redundant local systems, but geographically redundant systems. We use a lot of Google and Amazon hosting at work, as many do. You can buy different levels of service.
You can get the cheap "It's in that data center over there"
Or you can get the more expensive, "It's in that data center over there, plus one in the midwest, one in Canada, one in the Southeast, one in Japan, etc.

But I'm sure someone will come up with some imaginary event where all that will fail and the only thing that survives is some guy who buried supplies in his backyard. That's usually the way these discussions go.
Personally, I think I'd prefer to check out at that point. I don't necessarily be part of a world that functions that way.
 
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