2017 F-150 Install

[CopperWhopper67]

Hello all!

I posted in this section about a year ago seeking advice on a radio installation for a 1995 Dodge Dakota, and I received lots of great advice! However, a wise man in the thread commented that if I wanted to use an equipment console, which is a priority, then I probably should get a newer vehicle... so that is exactly what I did! It was a decision that I thank myself for making for many more reasons than just radio stuff, but radio stuff is important; that's why we're here.

That being said, I finally have some space in my budget deploy my mobile radio setup and I have a lot of it hammered out, but there are some things on which I would still like the community's input.

First some info:
2017 F-150 SuperCrew (Short bed 5.5ft if it matters)
Havis C-VSW-3000-F150-1 is the console of choice

Radios will be:
SDS200 Scanner
Anytone AT-D578UV PRO (Part 90 version) (50w)
Kenwood TK-690H (110w)
(and maybe a CB but only as antenna space permits)

The roof measures ~53" wide x ~66" long so I have a decent amount of room for three antennas but I am still concerned about overloading the front end of the scanner from transmissions from the two transceivers. I have heard about the use of an RF limiter for the scanner but have not been able to find any specific models or part numbers for ones that will work for that amount of power.

Is there a way that would be recommended to space the antennas on the roof to avoid using one but still keep proper ground plane? If not, what limiter should I use and where can I find it? Does a limiter significantly affect the reception of the scanner?

Also, if I wanted to do CB could I reasonably fit such antenna on the roof with the others? Maybe on my one of bed rails if the roof wouldn't be ideal? Not a biggie if I cannot have CB, though it would be nice.

It seems like most makers of NMO mounts use brass for their connectors, which brings up the concern of corrosion occurring on the truck's aluminum body. Are there aluminum mounts or a corrosion prevention technique that can be utilized?

Any additional advice and two-cents is appreciated too,
-CH

 

[mmckenna]

Radios will be:
SDS200 Scanner
Anytone AT-D578UV PRO (Part 90 version) (50w)
Kenwood TK-690H (110w)
(and maybe a CB but only as antenna space permits)
…...
Is there a way that would be recommended to space the antennas on the roof to avoid using one but still keep proper ground plane? If not, what limiter should I use and where can I find it? Does a limiter significantly affect the reception of the scanner?

Also, if I wanted to do CB could I reasonably fit such antenna on the roof with the others? Maybe on my one of bed rails if the roof wouldn't be ideal? Not a biggie if I cannot have CB, though it would be nice.

Kind of depends on what you want to prioritize. Since you want to keep good groundplanes, I suspect the low band and the VHF/UHF radio are primary.

I'd ditch the CB unless you have an established need for it. Getting enough space for CB and a low band radio will be a challenge.
Low band antenna dead center of the roof, maybe a bit forward of center. That'll give it a near perfect ground plane.
VHF/UHF, I'd probably put it towards the rear of the cab, offset to one side. Just keep it 19" in from the rear and sides of the cab and you'll have a suitable ground plane.
Put the scanner antenna opposite side, same spacing as the VHF/UHF antenna.

The RF limiter would be a good choice. @prcguy may be able to make a good recommendation. 110 watts low band may be the one to worry about. 50 watts on VHF/UHF might desense your scanner, but I doubt it'll be a big issue with the scanner. Either way, the RF limiter will protect the scanner from both.

If you really need CB later, use something that keeps it away from the low band antenna. Since it doesn't sound like CB is a priority, you could mount it on one of the fender bracket NMO setups in front of the cab.

It seems like most makers of NMO mounts use brass for their connectors, which brings up the concern of corrosion occurring on the truck's aluminum body. Are there aluminum mounts or a corrosion prevention technique that can be utilized?

The dissimilar metals are only an issue if you get water involved. Since a properly installed NMO mount isn't going to let water in, it is not an issue.
The NMO mount will have an O ring that will seal the outside. That'll keep any of the vehicle bare metal dry. On the underside of the roof, it's dry, so no issues. I've been running Brass or stainless NMO's on Aluminum body trucks since 2011 and have not had any issues. My current work truck is an F350 and has 3 NMO's on the roof and it spends a lot of time near the ocean. It's been hit with spray quite a bit, and no issues.

Most people don't pay any attention and just drill holes and use standard hardware and never think of it.

Any additional advice and two-cents is appreciated too,
-CH

You are on the right track.
Consider which radios are most important to you, and then prioritize those antennas.
Make sure you give them the ground plane they need.
Permanent NMO's, done right, won't be an issue.

Don't forget the rest of your install:
Run a heavy gauge wire from the battery, through a fuse/breaker, then back to where your RF decks are going to be. I run a minimum of #6 so I can support up to 60 amps of load.
Ground to the body, ground the radio chassis, etc.

Take your time, do it right.

 

[jeepsandradios]

I run the larsen stainless mounts in my F150. I have 6 of them and no issues what so ever. GPS antenna is a steel bolt and nut and also no issues.

Everything @mmckenna says is pretty spot on.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

Consider which radios are most important to you, and then prioritize those antennas.
Make sure you give them the ground plane they need.

Thank you for the continued help and advice!
The tricky thing is that all of these radios are equally important.

The SDS is going to provide a majority of the listening that I want to do (big scan lists, multiple bands, trunking networks, etc.) so I want to make sure my setup does not hinder the unit's ability to receive a good signal. Transmit and receive on the dual bander are equally important but low band however is an odd one.

I obviously want the LB radio to transmit its best when I need it but I am not going to be transmitting very often with it, another reason I have it is to listen to Low Band users with more purpose built equipment (e.g. Local CHP, CT, Calaveras Sheriff [whenever I am down there]).

Keeping this in mind would your recommended antenna placement still be a good fit?
Is it okay for the antennas to be closer to each other to keep them a proper distance from the edge of the cabin?

Appreciate it as always,
-CH

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for the continued help and advice!
The tricky thing is that all of these radios are equally important.

The SDS is going to provide a majority of the listening that I want to do (big scan lists, multiple bands, trunking networks, etc.) so I want to make sure my setup does not hinder the unit's ability to receive a good signal. Transmit and receive on the dual bander are equally important but low band however is an odd one.

The scanner and it's antenna is going to be more forgiving of its placement. You can still give it a good location with plenty of suitable ground plane for its antenna. If you place it towards the corner of the cab and at least 19 inches in from any edge, it'll work well. You do want to have some separation between the scanner antenna and the TX antennas as the scanner has pretty wide filtering on the front end that'll leave it open to the RF from both the dual band ham radio and the low band radio.

I obviously want the LB radio to transmit its best when I need it but I am not going to be transmitting very often with it, another reason I have it is to listen to Low Band users with more purpose built equipment (e.g. Local CHP, CT, Calaveras Sheriff [whenever I am down there]).

Well, it's still easy enough to do right. Dead center of the cab, maybe biased a bit forward to give you more separation from the scanner/dual band antennas on the back of the cab. You want enough ground plane under the antenna so you can get a decent SWR. Too little ground plane and you may have trouble getting that.

Keeping this in mind would your recommended antenna placement still be a good fit?
Is it okay for the antennas to be closer to each other to keep them a proper distance from the edge of the cabin?

Appreciate it as always,
-CH

This is where you need to be careful. Putting the antennas too close together and you'll get a lot of coupling between antennas. That can result in too much RF getting into the other radios.
The dual band radio probably has some decent filtering (or at least it should, all bets are kind of off with the CCR's) to keep RF from well outside the VHF high or UHF bands out of the receiver. Same with the low band radio, it's going to have filtering to keep most of the RF from outside its designed area out.

Since the scanner is going to have a pretty wide open set of filters, as in it is designed to cover low band, VHF high band, UHF, etc. It's not going to have much protection from the higher power transmitters. The big question is, will there be enough RF coupled from the antennas to exceed what is safe for the scanner front end? You can test this with a watt meter, and see if it exceeds the 250mw rating that seems to be generally acceptable, but you'd still be wise to install a RF limiter in front of the scanner to protect it from damage.

You are still likely to get receiver de-sense, especially on the scanner, when you key up the transmitters. Not much you can do about that.

If you look at the roof of a CHP car, you'll see the antennas spaced pretty close. That's well thought out and takes into account decent filtering in the front ends of the radios used in their vehicles. I know in the old days, CHP used to have an antenna switch that would disconnect the scanner antenna when transmitting with the low band radio. Not sure if they still use that, or even if they still install scanners in them.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

The scanner and it's antenna is going to be more forgiving of its placement. You can still give it a good location with plenty of suitable ground plane for its antenna. If you place it towards the corner of the cab and at least 19 inches in from any edge, it'll work well. You do want to have some separation between the scanner antenna and the TX antennas as the scanner has pretty wide filtering on the front end that'll leave it open to the RF from both the dual band ham radio and the low band radio.

Dead center of the cab, maybe biased a bit forward to give you more separation from the scanner/dual band antennas on the back of the cab. You want enough ground plane under the antenna so you can get a decent SWR. Too little ground plane and you may have trouble getting that.

I did some measuring:
If I put the LB antenna 5 inches forward of center on the roof and the other two in the rear corners 19 inches from the sides and back, then there will be ~16.5 inches between scanner and dual band antenna and both will sit ~22.5 inches away from the LB antenna. Does this seem like enough space?

Thanks again,
-CH

 

[mmckenna]

Not sure if it's enough to run without an RF limiter on the scanner, but the spacing is right.

You could give yourself more space by reconfiguring things, but you'd give up appropriate ground plane for your antennas. You don't have enough ground plane for low band, but giving it as much as you can and as even as possible is going to help performance.

Or, just run a 1/4 wave low band whip off a ball mount on the bed, like CalTrans does….

 

[CopperWhopper67]

Not sure if it's enough to run without an RF limiter on the scanner, but the spacing is right.

You could give yourself more space by reconfiguring things, but you'd give up appropriate ground plane for your antennas. You don't have enough ground plane for low band, but giving it as much as you can and as even as possible is going to help performance.

Or, just run a 1/4 wave low band whip off a ball mount on the bed, like CalTrans does….

My next step will definitely be sourcing and RF limiter for the scanner. I'm sure the Anytone will be okay without one. It is FCC certified so its far better than the no name garbage out there (and for $400 it better be)

Does the RF limiter attenuate all signals coming into the scanner or just high powered ones?

Also, how much ground plane space is needed for LB and do I have enough with the hypothetical layout to make it work well enough?

-CH

 

[mmckenna]

Does the RF limiter attenuate all signals coming into the scanner or just high powered ones?

It's not an attenuator. It just clamps down on anything over its limit.

Also, how much ground plane space is needed for LB and do I have enough with the hypothetical layout to make it work well enough?

Ideally, 1/4 wavelength in all directions under the antenna. At 6 meters, an ideal ground plane would be 54" in each direction radiating out from under the base of the antenna.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

Ideally, 1/4 wavelength in all directions under the antenna. At 6 meters, an ideal ground plane would be 54" in each direction radiating out from under the base of the antenna.

Since LB really needs a 54" radius then I will obviously never meet 100% of that ground plane requirement even if it was the only antenna on there so the question becomes...
Given the proper RF power limiter, do you think this layout will give me good performance for all three radios?

Thanks again!,
-CH

 

[mmckenna]

Since LB really needs a 54" radius then I will obviously never meet 100% of that ground plane requirement even if it was the only antenna on there so the question becomes...

Right. And it's the same for CB.
If you set the antenna off to one side, you will make it directional. If you center it on what ground plane there is available, you'll help give it a more even radiation pattern. For this reason, I usually ran CB antennas on the center of the roof when that was my primary radio. It worked well for me as it gave pretty equal performance in all directions. It's also the reason I don't run antennas on fender mounts. Ground planes are important if you want true omnidirectional performance.
My current personal truck only has one radio. VHF, so the NMO mount is centered on the roof of a crew cab F350. Plenty of ground plane in all directions.

Given the proper RF power limiter, do you think this layout will give me good performance for all three radios?

I think you are doing it right. The low band antenna is more or less centered, so it'll work equally well in all directions.
The VHF/UHF antenna has a suitable ground plane under it, so it's going to work well in all directions.
Same for the scanner antenna.
The limiter should protect the scanner.

If I needed to do the same installation, that's what I'd do.

My work truck has a VHF and an 800MHz mobile in it. I put the antennas centered on the roof in the front/back direction.
The VHF antenna is 18" in from the drivers side of the cab.
The 800MHz antenna is 18" in from the passenger side.
That makes them look balanced and gives plenty of ground plane for both. There's enough separation that the 15 watt 800MHz mobile doesn't interfere with the VHF radio and the VHF radio doesn't interfere with the 800MHz radio.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

Right. And it's the same for CB.
If you set the antenna off to one side, you will make it directional. If you center it on what ground plane there is available, you'll help give it a more even radiation pattern. For this reason, I usually ran CB antennas on the center of the roof when that was my primary radio. It worked well for me as it gave pretty equal performance in all directions. It's also the reason I don't run antennas on fender mounts. Ground planes are important if you want true omnidirectional performance.
My current personal truck only has one radio. VHF, so the NMO mount is centered on the roof of a crew cab F350. Plenty of ground plane in all directions.



I think you are doing it right. The low band antenna is more or less centered, so it'll work equally well in all directions.
The VHF/UHF antenna has a suitable ground plane under it, so it's going to work well in all directions.
Same for the scanner antenna.
The limiter should protect the scanner.

If I needed to do the same installation, that's what I'd do.

My work truck has a VHF and an 800MHz mobile in it. I put the antennas centered on the roof in the front/back direction.
The VHF antenna is 18" in from the drivers side of the cab.
The 800MHz antenna is 18" in from the passenger side.
That makes them look balanced and gives plenty of ground plane for both. There's enough separation that the 15 watt 800MHz mobile doesn't interfere with the VHF radio and the VHF radio doesn't interfere with the 800MHz radio.

I truly appreciate all the knowledge you are sending my way! Thank you again.

How about line filters? Should I use them? I have a KLF-2 from Kenwood laying around in the parts bin. Would something like that help in this case?

-Ch

 

[mmckenna]

I truly appreciate all the knowledge you are sending my way! Thank you again.

How about line filters? Should I use them? I have a KLF-2 from Kenwood laying around in the parts bin. Would something like that help in this case?

The KLF-2 is a DC power filter. It won't do anything for the RF side of the radio

I have one. Never used it. Still in the original box. I purchased it when I was buying my initial bunch of gear back 11-12 years ago and wanted to try one of everything they had.
If you do your installation right, and don't cut corners, you should not need it. Power directly off the battery, everything properly grounded, you won't need to add it.

Usually they get used when someone cuts corners on the installation and are willing to pay for an expensive solution rather than just fix the install.

Well, sort of, there's some applications for it, but not in a modern truck with good installation practices.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

The KLF-2 is a DC power filter. It won't do anything for the RF side of the radio

I have one. Never used it. Still in the original box. I purchased it when I was buying my initial bunch of gear back 11-12 years ago and wanted to try one of everything they had.
If you do your installation right, and don't cut corners, you should not need it. Power directly off the battery, everything properly grounded, you won't need to add it.

Usually they get used when someone cuts corners on the installation and are willing to pay for an expensive solution rather than just fix the install.

Well, sort of, there's some applications for it, but not in a modern truck with good installation practices.

Okay good to know.
Just to confirm with grounding. I should bond the ground to the frame and not lead directly to the battery?

Also, anything to keep in mind when running coax from the antenna?

 

[mmckenna]

Okay good to know.
Just to confirm with grounding. I should bond the ground to the frame and not lead directly to the battery?

Correct.

A lot of newer vehicles, including the F150, have a sensor on the negative lead to the battery. That sensor looks at the current flowing to/from the battery. If you dig into the manual, it'll tell you specifically not to connect anything to the negative battery post. If you do, it creates a bypass to the sensor. Return to the battery can come through the antenna mount, radio chassis, etc. and follow the negative lead back to the battery and make the sensor read incorrectly.


On some vehicles (modern Chevy's and probably others) it uses that information to control the alternator. When the battery is fully charged and the buss voltage is within specs, it "idles" the alternator to reduce load on the engine.

The right way to do this is to use the body as the return. Ground the negative lead from the radio to the body as closely as you can to the radio.

I'd recommend running a large + lead from the battery to a fuse or breaker close to the battery. I'd use 6 gauge as that'll easily support multiple radios plus any accessories you add down the road. Terminate that near your radios on a fused distribution block. That'll let you fuse each radio individually.
Also, use a ground block. You can get fused distribution blocks with a ground buss, or buy a separate ground bar. Ground the negative power leads to that, and run a short 6 gauge cable to a body ground point.
While you are at it, ground each radio chassis to the grounding block, also. It's common for the negative power lead to be connected to the radio ground, but it's a good practice to ground the radio chassis separately. That'll give any RFI a clean and easy path to ground.

Also, anything to keep in mind when running coax from the antenna?

Keep it away from existing vehicle wiring as much as you can. Leave a foot or so at the end so you have some slack to re-terminate the coax if needed. Don't coil up lots of slack coax, cut it to length and terminate. A bit of marine grade heat shrink tubing over the coax crimps acts as a strain relief and makes everything look clean.

 

[quadracer1014]

Hello all!

I posted in this section about a year ago seeking advice on a radio installation for a 1995 Dodge Dakota, and I received lots of great advice! However, a wise man in the thread commented that if I wanted to use an equipment console, which is a priority, then I probably should get a newer vehicle... so that is exactly what I did! It was a decision that I thank myself for making for many more reasons than just radio stuff, but radio stuff is important; that's why we're here.

That being said, I finally have some space in my budget deploy my mobile radio setup and I have a lot of it hammered out, but there are some things on which I would still like the community's input.

First some info:
2017 F-150 SuperCrew (Short bed 5.5ft if it matters)
Havis C-VSW-3000-F150-1 is the console of choice

Radios will be:
SDS200 Scanner
Anytone AT-D578UV PRO (Part 90 version) (50w)
Kenwood TK-690H (110w)
(and maybe a CB but only as antenna space permits)

The roof measures ~53" wide x ~66" long so I have a decent amount of room for three antennas but I am still concerned about overloading the front end of the scanner from transmissions from the two transceivers. I have heard about the use of an RF limiter for the scanner but have not been able to find any specific models or part numbers for ones that will work for that amount of power.

Is there a way that would be recommended to space the antennas on the roof to avoid using one but still keep proper ground plane? If not, what limiter should I use and where can I find it? Does a limiter significantly affect the reception of the scanner?

Also, if I wanted to do CB could I reasonably fit such antenna on the roof with the others? Maybe on my one of bed rails if the roof wouldn't be ideal? Not a biggie if I cannot have CB, though it would be nice.

It seems like most makers of NMO mounts use brass for their connectors, which brings up the concern of corrosion occurring on the truck's aluminum body. Are there aluminum mounts or a corrosion prevention technique that can be utilized?

Any additional advice and two-cents is appreciated too,
-CH

What did you use for a switched power source just out of curiousity

 

[CopperWhopper67]

What did you use for a switched power source just out of curiousity

I just used a 12v battery cutoff switch from Amazon

 

[mmckenna]

What did you use for a switched power source just out of curiousity

I'm not sure if there is a dedicated switched power lead on the F150. I know the F350's of this vintage had an "upfitter" wiring harness behind the passenger side kick plate. There was a 5 amp 12 volt ignition switched circuit on both my 2018 F350 and the 2017 work F350. I ran from that lead all the way back behind the rear seat where the RF decks were. The 5 amps was plenty for driving a Lind timer. I used the Lind timer for feeding the ignition switch lead on the radios.

 

[CopperWhopper67]

What did you use for a switched power source just out of curiousity

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[slowmover]

Given the importance to other radio services, I’d be inclined to try a stake pocket mount for the CB antenna if it wouldn’t interfere. I’ve heard some VG set-ups while on the highway utilizing this antenna mount type where 2-Meter was also in use for convoy comms of OVERSIZED loads (3-4/vehicles).

A 102” on an RF-Junk 10” riser to tune it via analyzer is one approach I’ve seen recommended.

I recently had an ongoing highway conversation with a man using a permanent roof-mount 5’ Wilson on his pickup.

— 2.5-mile clarity on an AM-only stock radio was where he started to fade as he was running faster (I was at 70, he was at 75+; we were checking his range mobile-to-mobile).

The 102” might be in that ballpark given similar radio. Something shorter for around town?

Breedlove Mount

.