A Goubau Line

Sheepdog777

AE0TO
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 5, 2022
Messages
63
Location
Clinton, MO
I'm curious how it was decided that "pulling with a tractor" was not affecting the wire. Before I retired I worked with many types of wire but never came across a "tension" rating for common wire. While it may exist, I would be concerned about the characteristics of the insulation versus the wire as it stretched. (I'm assuming there was no parallel support wire in the run.)
I supremely appreciate a woman with enough grit to have a lab and use a Field Expedient method to tension antenna wire with a Tractor in an old school configuration... That's Classy AF and If'in I Twern't married to my absolutely "Precious as Rubies" beautiful wife, then.... I'd be... um... Single.

Gonn go ahead and shut up now... Need to Brows Moar...

;)
o7
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
869
Oh Wow ! Guys !

I had no idea when I posted this it would evolve so gloriously ! :)

I should have prefaced at the outset that I am by no means an expert on this feedline- or any feedline, for that matter. My background with the G-Line goes back to the years when I would demonstrate them to undergrads, back when I was a TA. The extent of my understand'ng is pretty much detailed in what I have already said. But I can fill in a few details.

The wire was ( yes past tense now- more on this to follow )-- was a special find that the guys in the machine shop located for me. It was a thousand foot spool of number ten copperweld wire, coat'd with an epoxy resin. What this wire was originally intended for -who knew-- but all I was looking for was that it be 'insulated'--- and I settled for the epoxy which worked fine, though I had used vinyl covered wires in my teaching days.

There was no intermediate support for the wire- it ran quite vertically from a barn roof- up to the top of the rock cliff that over shadows my place-- in one big swoop. I never figured it would last and the last storm proved the point -- but what is the old ham saying ?

If your antenna stay'd up all winter it wasn't big enuff

In the end, this was an experiment that worked. Anyone wishing to follow I hope will be as rewarded as I was.
_____________________________________________


Oh----and an Epilogue

One of my nieces is visiting over her Spring Break.
She and my friend Cindy were going off skiing--
We've had a couple of fresh snow's since the G-Line disaster--
New snow was covering the detached barn horn--
Some one back'd her F250 over--
...........well, you can fill in the blank

That horn is now flatter than a day old glass of Coke.

Spring will not see it re-strung. I have this idea about using a passive repeater instead.
Stay tuned ! ;)


Lauri

6866.jpg

.





.
 
Last edited:

KevinC

Other
Super Moderator
Joined
Jan 7, 2001
Messages
11,822
Location
Home
Oh Wow ! Guys !

I had no idea when I posted this it would evolve so gloriously ! :)

I should have prefaced at the outset that I am by no means an expert on this feedline- or any feedline, for that matter. My background with the G-Line goes back to the years when I would demonstrate them to undergrads, back when I was a TA. The extent of my understand'ng is pretty much detailed in what I have already said. But I can fill in a few details.

The wire was ( yes past tense now- more on this to follow )-- was a special find that the guys in the machine shop located for me. It was a thousand foot spool of number ten copperweld wire, coat'd with an epoxy resin. What this wire was originally intended for -who knew-- but all I was looking for was that it be 'insulated'--- and I settled for the epoxy which worked fine, though I had used vinyl covered wires in my teaching days.

There was no intermediate support for the wire- it ran quite vertically from a barn roof- up to the top of the rock cliff that over shadows my place-- in one big swoop. I never figured it would last and the last storm proved the point -- but what is the old ham saying ?

If your antenna stay'd up all winter it wasn't big enuff

In the end, this was an experiment that worked. Anyone wishing to follow I hope will be as rewarded as I was.
_____________________________________________


Oh----and an Epilogue

One of my nieces is visiting over her Spring Break.
She and my friend Cindy were going off skiing--
We've had a couple of fresh snow's since the G-Line disaster--
New snow was covering the detached barn horn--
Some one back'd her F250 over--
...........well, you can fill in the blank

That horn is now flatter than a day old glass of Coke.

Spring will not see it re-strung. I have this idea about using a passive repeater instead.
Stay tuned ! ;)


Lauri

View attachment 138686

.





.
It’s Wander Woman!!!
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
Gonna Mess With Your Head a Bit...

IF: The Air is an Insulator
AND: The Ionosphere is a Conductor/Quasispherical Waveguide
AND: The Earth is a Conductor/Spherical Waveguide w/ Ferrite/Nickel Core
AND: All Transmission Lines & Antennas Are Conductors
AND: Transmission Line Theory is Very Similar to Electroacoustical Theory (Isobarics)
AND: RADIO IS MODULATION OF VOICE/DATA/CODE
THEN: Can the Earth Be a Transmission Line, Antenna, Electrically Driven Electrical Modulation Medium?

Think about that Huh....?

Until It Clicks... Here's a Combat Officer on a Unicycle... lol

Sweet Dreams...

Ryan, AE0TO
o7
It acts more like a resonant cavity (schumann resonance), if it wasn't oblong but a long cylinder instead, ti could work like a waveguide.


Thanks
Joel
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
Oh Wow ! Guys !

I had no idea when I posted this it would evolve so gloriously ! :)

I should have prefaced at the outset that I am by no means an expert on this feedline- or any feedline, for that matter. My background with the G-Line goes back to the years when I would demonstrate them to undergrads, back when I was a TA. The extent of my understand'ng is pretty much detailed in what I have already said. But I can fill in a few details.

The wire was ( yes past tense now- more on this to follow )-- was a special find that the guys in the machine shop located for me. It was a thousand foot spool of number ten copperweld wire, coat'd with an epoxy resin. What this wire was originally intended for -who knew-- but all I was looking for was that it be 'insulated'--- and I settled for the epoxy which worked fine, though I had used vinyl covered wires in my teaching days.

There was no intermediate support for the wire- it ran quite vertically from a barn roof- up to the top of the rock cliff that over shadows my place-- in one big swoop. I never figured it would last and the last storm proved the point -- but what is the old ham saying ?

If your antenna stay'd up all winter it wasn't big enuff

In the end, this was an experiment that worked. Anyone wishing to follow I hope will be as rewarded as I was.
_____________________________________________


Oh----and an Epilogue

One of my nieces is visiting over her Spring Break.
She and my friend Cindy were going off skiing--
We've had a couple of fresh snow's since the G-Line disaster--
New snow was covering the detached barn horn--
Some one back'd her F250 over--
...........well, you can fill in the blank

That horn is now flatter than a day old glass of Coke.

Spring will not see it re-strung. I have this idea about using a passive repeater instead.
Stay tuned ! ;)


Lauri

View attachment 138686

.





.
It's been a wonderful discussion, one of the best on radio reference.

A passive repeater like a periscope arrangement? :)

Thanks
Joel
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
869
Not exactly Joel, :) --- a periscope is more like for microwave; a non resonant big mirror in effect.

What I envision are resonant beam antennas-- one (or more) turned downward towards the house- other(s) off into the valley, They would be hooked back to back with a run of coax. I'll use a beam at the house pointed towards this array to feed it-- All this, "passively repeating" a signal over my cliff.

Years ago I hiked up to the top of Mt. Davidson, the tall mountain that overshadows the old mining town of Virginia City, Nevada, Besides the awesome view of the snowy Sierras that extend from as far north, down to the south --as far as you can see, there were plenty of flag poles and mounments placed by Virginia City's Victorian era citizens--- but also up there were remains of a bizarre antenna system.
What I stumbled upon were several television antennas- standard household beam antenna popular in the pre cable/satellite days of terrestrial analog broadcasting, pointing off to the west (and the city of Reno.) Attached to these beams by runs of open wire feed line were what I can only describe as panels of chicken wire fencing. These were large 'panels' of wood (insulating them from the ground ?) overlooking Virginia City.
Cool !--- a passive form of a television repeater. Virginia City was certainly a fringe location masked by this mountain.

Later I ask a old Virginia City resident what they knew about those antennas up on Mt. Davidson.

"Some guys put them up there years ago when TV here was all snowy... we didn't have any cable or anything-- just the antennas on our houses."
"When we pointed our own antennas towards the mountain's summit the pictures clear'd up-- a lot"

So, there long ago was planted the seed of what will be a Spring time experiment (?)-- Maybe by May the snow will be gone and we can get up the escarpment ----


Lauri

.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
6,994
A long while back I was surveying a radio site in western Ohio near lake Erie and found an abandoned solid parabolic dish. A huge one that was aligned roughly toward the north west on a terrestrial elevation. The feed was a custom UHF log periodic. I think, but never verified, that it was either focused on the Canadian stations, or perhaps Chicago.
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
Not exactly Joel, :) --- a periscope is more like for microwave; a non resonant big mirror in effect.

What I envision are resonant beam antennas-- one (or more) turned downward towards the house- other(s) off into the valley, They would be hooked back to back with a run of coax. I'll use a beam at the house pointed towards this array to feed it-- All this, "passively repeating" a signal over my cliff.

Years ago I hiked up to the top of Mt. Davidson, the tall mountain that overshadows the old mining town of Virginia City, Nevada, Besides the awesome view of the snowy Sierras that extend from as far north, down to the south --as far as you can see, there were plenty of flag poles and mounments placed by Virginia City's Victorian era citizens--- but also up there were remains of a bizarre antenna system.
What I stumbled upon were several television antennas- standard household beam antenna popular in the pre cable/satellite days of terrestrial analog broadcasting, pointing off to the west (and the city of Reno.) Attached to these beams by runs of open wire feed line were what I can only describe as panels of chicken wire fencing. These were large 'panels' of wood (insulating them from the ground ?) overlooking Virginia City.
Cool !--- a passive form of a television repeater. Virginia City was certainly a fringe location masked by this mountain.

Later I ask a old Virginia City resident what they knew about those antennas up on Mt. Davidson.

"Some guys put them up there years ago when TV here was all snowy... we didn't have any cable or anything-- just the antennas on our houses."
"When we pointed our own antennas towards the mountain's summit the pictures clear'd up-- a lot"

So, there long ago was planted the seed of what will be a Spring time experiment (?)-- Maybe by May the snow will be gone and we can get up the escarpment ----


Lauri

.
I was thinking of something like that in NJ where I was in a fringe area, I could get a cell phone signal on the second floor, but not on the first... A really good beam or even a small parabola on the second floor, connected with coax, feeding a cellphone antenna on the first floor near where I needed a signal.

If I understand it correctly though (which is a possibility), if an array of antennas are pointed at a source, and they aren't illuminated evenly, they end up not working as well as hoped. Whcih makes me lean towards a single large antenna in each direction vs. an array in each direction. is this your understanding also?

Thanks
Joel
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136

Jim_Shaffer

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
53
So what, if anything, is the connection between the Goubau transmission line and the Zenneck surface wave? Zenneck wave systems also use a conical(ish) launcher, but apparently propagate along the wire-air interface, no coating needed on the wire.
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
So what, if anything, is the connection between the Goubau transmission line and the Zenneck surface wave? Zenneck wave systems also use a conical(ish) launcher, but apparently propagate along the wire-air interface, no coating needed on the wire.
Not very sure about this, but I'm thinking that reviewing the purpose of the thick insulators purpose on the G-line is appropriate.
I'm not positive BUT, as an E-M field alternately switches between the electric and the magnetic field, the insulator slows down the part of the wave that is otherwise in free space, making the part that is going along the conductive part of the wire with the part that would otherwise be in the (faster) free space medium, the same speed, making it more efficient.

Just a guess.

Thanks
Joel
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
Not exactly Joel, :) --- a periscope is more like for microwave; a non resonant big mirror in effect.

What I envision are resonant beam antennas-- one (or more) turned downward towards the house- other(s) off into the valley, They would be hooked back to back with a run of coax. I'll use a beam at the house pointed towards this array to feed it-- All this, "passively repeating" a signal over my cliff.

Years ago I hiked up to the top of Mt. Davidson, the tall mountain that overshadows the old mining town of Virginia City, Nevada, Besides the awesome view of the snowy Sierras that extend from as far north, down to the south --as far as you can see, there were plenty of flag poles and mounments placed by Virginia City's Victorian era citizens--- but also up there were remains of a bizarre antenna system.
What I stumbled upon were several television antennas- standard household beam antenna popular in the pre cable/satellite days of terrestrial analog broadcasting, pointing off to the west (and the city of Reno.) Attached to these beams by runs of open wire feed line were what I can only describe as panels of chicken wire fencing. These were large 'panels' of wood (insulating them from the ground ?) overlooking Virginia City.
Cool !--- a passive form of a television repeater. Virginia City was certainly a fringe location masked by this mountain.

Later I ask a old Virginia City resident what they knew about those antennas up on Mt. Davidson.

"Some guys put them up there years ago when TV here was all snowy... we didn't have any cable or anything-- just the antennas on our houses."
"When we pointed our own antennas towards the mountain's summit the pictures clear'd up-- a lot"

So, there long ago was planted the seed of what will be a Spring time experiment (?)-- Maybe by May the snow will be gone and we can get up the escarpment ----


Lauri

.
You could put up some advertising billboards with aluminum foil backing. That might be large enough for a passive reflector. :)
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
869
A large 'Bill Board" reflector.... hmmmm....intriguing idea.

But in my case the geometry itself speaks against it. How it could be angled to throw a signal forward over the the cliff is one issue. The logistics of constructing such a platform in a alpine environment is another. Nothing antenna wise is safe from a Rocky mountain blizzard/storm.

Down in my valley, on the side of a mountain, is one such reflector. It belongs to a trans-continental gas line company; what fires into it is about 2 miles down in the shadows of the mountains at a high pressure pumping station.... from there it flings a microwave signal far out over the horizon,
We will often take hikes up to it, for it sits on a massive concrete foundation; and its an excellent spot for a picnic--- Its enormous size and positioning offers a perfect piece of shade and a wind break for sitting and marveling at the mountain views. Its at least 30 by 30 feet square, and built like a battleship. How old it is is anyones guess, but it shows no signs of any weather wear and tear---- except maybe for some ancient bullet holes and dings---- seems like this is too an enticing a target for some people.


Lauri.jpg

So----the snow on the escarpment is still too nasty to do anything yet, but the Passive Repeater is on what's on the boards.

Lauri



Lauri 644.jpg
.

.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
6,994
An intriguing thought for "hammys" is that one can overbuild another microwave link "borrowing" the reflectivity of an existing commercial bill board reflector(s) and no one would be the wiser.
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,136
A large 'Bill Board" reflector.... hmmmm....intriguing idea.

But in my case the geometry itself speaks against it. How it could be angled to throw a signal forward over the the cliff is one issue. The logistics of constructing such a platform in a alpine environment is another. Nothing antenna wise is safe from a Rocky mountain blizzard/storm.

Down in my valley, on the side of a mountain, is one such reflector. It belongs to a trans-continental gas line company; what fires into it is about 2 miles down in the shadows of the mountains at a high pressure pumping station.... from there it flings a microwave signal far out over the horizon,
We will often take hikes up to it, for it sits on a massive concrete foundation; and its an excellent spot for a picnic--- Its enormous size and positioning offers a perfect piece of shade and a wind break for sitting and marveling at the mountain views. Its at least 30 by 30 feet square, and built like a battleship. How old it is is anyones guess, but it shows no signs of any weather wear and tear---- except maybe for some ancient bullet holes and dings---- seems like this is too an enticing a target for some people.


View attachment 139956

So----the snow on the escarpment is still too nasty to do anything yet, but the Passive Repeater is on what's on the boards.

Lauri



View attachment 139957
.

.

Well, it's nice to know that the idea has a degree of merit...

group-of-antenas-on-top-of-a-hill-author.jpg


I was thinking of the billboard or maybe this :) your familiar white alice system. It should get the job done.

Thanks
Joel
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
869
More enticing ideas.... tho I fear much of the technology is $$ beyond most ham's resources.

Utilizing existing 'bill boards' would to great, but then comes in the geometry factor.... that is, the angle of the illuminating signal- this will be effected also by its bandwidth and frequency. My planar reflector example above isn't really planar-- it has a very slight curvature like a concave mirror, and its supporting frame work, while suitable for a battleship, was adjustable to el-az finesse'ing.... its mirror surface has to be angled such that it throws the refection at the desired target.

I have no idea where this reflector "reflects," but I imagine it would be someplace I am not interested in, even if I work'd out the math ;)


_________________________________________________________________________________________

That looks like the last remaining White Alice site Joel---Nome Alaska ?

White Alice (BTW, I love that name as a callsign, like "White Alice this is Coyote Frostbite"......) ----anyway--- White Alice used 900 MHz tropo scatter and it was quite effective up until satellites and fiber optics SK'd them.
Years (!) ;) ago I visited several de-activated White Alice sites and marveled at their engineering-- I think I even post'd somethings about them here in the Forums.....
While those huge reflectors would qualify as 'bill boards,' they are far from passive repeaters-- they are actually parts of big corner reflectors. I was told that to stand in their immediate beam path was a **very** bad idea !


Lauri


.
 
Top