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NMPhillieFan

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We need to see more of this across the country. We all know in APD's case, they already encrypt most of their talkgroups (appropriately, I might add). Encrypting the dispatch channels serves no legitimate purpose.

 

Giddyuptd

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Won't happen in NM they have made it clear they will back LE decisions over opinion in regards to safety. Last 2 governors and numerous state senate officials have already addressed in past past would not compromise safety or get involved in micro managing agency choices over safety issues. Will say people keep choosing certain leaders it'll continue to go path of places like CA or NY for NM as it's become a heavily retirement or fresh start for those people who destroyed their own states.

We need to see more of this across the country. We all know in APD's case, they already encrypt most of their talkgroups (appropriately, I might add). Encrypting the dispatch channels serves no legitimate purpose.

 

MrAstroSaber

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APD is only one of few NM departments who have encrypted main line channels. Roswell, Sandia, San Miguel, and others have made the switch just like so many departments in Texas as well. Full time encryption continues to get more cost affordable and is becoming more and more of the new normal. With many other departments joining the state system I would expect to see more and more encryption to be used. Rio Rancho and Sandoval have both shown interest in making the switch as well to full time encryption.

Not sure how going to full time encryption would create any problems other than Scanners and Media. I am sure they will make the media buy radios and program them with the key for RX only. As for interoperability the state has several interop channels and departments can share encryption keys if they want there neighbors to be able to talk to them or have everyone move to one of the many interop channels. Just takes some planning and doing.

I support the switch to full time encryption. ABQ is completely out of control. A murder a day keeps the doctor away.. Oh wait no that is an apple a day. Never the less with the ability for the bad guys to monitor APD on there phone with scanner apps or stealing a scanner from someone who worked hard to buy that $500 scanner is just to easy and does become an offer safety issue.

I said this in the start they were going to make the move to full time encryption. I think its only a matter of time and we will start to see even more encryption get rolled out as many other departments join the state system.
 

Giddyuptd

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The influx of out of staters moving in has increased crime and traffic issues. Some places not even being ready. A couple entities I know of have decided to form service aide divisions of non sworn personnel to address the issues freeing up LE for emergency calls. This is the reality NM is getting a major crime boost and most don't notice it yet. NM is having having get with times pretty damn fast with the mass new comers who also unfortunately bring relatives who thrive in gang and organized criminal activity. I have for most part won't be visiting some places in NM anymore as the circus soemone else can have.

APD is only one of few NM departments who have encrypted main line channels. Roswell, Sandia, San Miguel, and others have made the switch just like so many departments in Texas as well. Full time encryption continues to get more cost affordable and is becoming more and more of the new normal. With many other departments joining the state system I would expect to see more and more encryption to be used. Rio Rancho and Sandoval have both shown interest in making the switch as well to full time encryption.

Not sure how going to full time encryption would create any problems other than Scanners and Media. I am sure they will make the media buy radios and program them with the key for RX only. As for interoperability the state has several interop channels and departments can share encryption keys if they want there neighbors to be able to talk to them or have everyone move to one of the many interop channels. Just takes some planning and doing.

I support the switch to full time encryption. ABQ is completely out of control. A murder a day keeps the doctor away.. Oh wait no that is an apple a day. Never the less with the ability for the bad guys to monitor APD on there phone with scanner apps or stealing a scanner from someone who worked hard to buy that $500 scanner is just to easy and does become an offer safety issue.

I said this in the start they were going to make the move to full time encryption. I think its only a matter of time and we will start to see even more encryption get rolled out as many other departments join the state system.
 

NMPhillieFan

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I support the switch to full time encryption. ABQ is completely out of control. A murder a day keeps the doctor away.. Oh wait no that is an apple a day. Never the less with the ability for the bad guys to monitor APD on there phone with scanner apps or stealing a scanner from someone who worked hard to buy that $500 scanner is just to easy and does become an offer safety issue.

I said this in the start they were going to make the move to full time encryption. I think its only a matter of time and we will start to see even more encryption get rolled out as many other departments join the state system.

Imagine that...someone with access to the encryption keys trying to sell us on encryption. There are surely those out there who will hear someone of some authority claim clear channels present an officer safety issue and they will buy what you are selling. I have worked both sides of the radio and am not buying it. That said, I would love to hear how a bad guy with a scanner presents a safety issue. If I thought there was any truth to that, I would support it. The fact is, until now, dispatch has not been encrypted and there are not rows of officers bodies piling up. If someone actually wants to injure an officer, it is just as easy to do today as it was before the radios went dark. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this. It does not take a scanner or an app to drive less than five minutes in any direction and you found an officer. I also enjoy the fallacy that these criminals are using scanners to commit crimes. Most of the dirtbags committing these violent crimes have no idea what a scanner is and while they may use an app (unlikely) they still get caught.

For the record, Chicago crime is out of control....how do I know? I can listen to them...and NYPD...and LAPD...hiding behind "officer safety" and encryption is not fooling anyone.
 

Giddyuptd

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The problem for Albuquerque is or was persons following officers around while having portable devices hearing them or tracing calls posting informationin real time. They would interfere with traffic stops and when told to step back the person's would incite others on YouTube or other live platforms to show up in numbers. Like it was said before just takes one bad apple. It don't help they get threats during such to their non emergency line pushing some to decide things. You can thank them auditors rather jobless bums who make money off suckers watching a boring live stream while one jams down canes chicken mumbling garbage at 1am on live stream social media.



Imagine that...someone with access to the encryption keys trying to sell us on encryption. There are surely those out there who will hear someone of some authority claim clear channels present an officer safety issue and they will buy what you are selling. I have worked both sides of the radio and am not buying it. That said, I would love to hear how a bad guy with a scanner presents a safety issue. If I thought there was any truth to that, I would support it. The fact is, until now, dispatch has not been encrypted and there are not rows of officers bodies piling up. If someone actually wants to injure an officer, it is just as easy to do today as it was before the radios went dark. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this. It does not take a scanner or an app to drive less than five minutes in any direction and you found an officer. I also enjoy the fallacy that these criminals are using scanners to commit crimes. Most of the dirtbags committing these violent crimes have no idea what a scanner is and while they may use an app (unlikely) they still get caught.

For the record, Chicago crime is out of control....how do I know? I can listen to them...and NYPD...and LAPD...hiding behind "officer safety" and encryption is not fooling anyone.
 

Giddyuptd

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Actually even as a system technician for a contractor he is limited on what he hears believe it or not minus exceptions. Even then they are also bound by NMDoiTT on it all to what they have access to. Even so head technicians go through some pretty decent background checks and the chiefs do look into people. You can ask some around roswell with their chief being a stickler on it all and process. Most are retired LE or dispatch anyway for those contractors who have access.

Imagine that...someone with access to the encryption keys trying to sell us on encryption. There are surely those out there who will hear someone of some authority claim clear channels present an officer safety issue and they will buy what you are selling. I have worked both sides of the radio and am not buying it. That said, I would love to hear how a bad guy with a scanner presents a safety issue. If I thought there was any truth to that, I would support it. The fact is, until now, dispatch has not been encrypted and there are not rows of officers bodies piling up. If someone actually wants to injure an officer, it is just as easy to do today as it was before the radios went dark. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this. It does not take a scanner or an app to drive less than five minutes in any direction and you found an officer. I also enjoy the fallacy that these criminals are using scanners to commit crimes. Most of the dirtbags committing these violent crimes have no idea what a scanner is and while they may use an app (unlikely) they still get caught.

For the record, Chicago crime is out of control....how do I know? I can listen to them...and NYPD...and LAPD...hiding behind "officer safety" and encryption is not fooling anyone.
 

Giddyuptd

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Those large entities are in process of doing same. NYC, Chicago, with lapd having future plans for it.

Imagine that...someone with access to the encryption keys trying to sell us on encryption. There are surely those out there who will hear someone of some authority claim clear channels present an officer safety issue and they will buy what you are selling. I have worked both sides of the radio and am not buying it. That said, I would love to hear how a bad guy with a scanner presents a safety issue. If I thought there was any truth to that, I would support it. The fact is, until now, dispatch has not been encrypted and there are not rows of officers bodies piling up. If someone actually wants to injure an officer, it is just as easy to do today as it was before the radios went dark. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this. It does not take a scanner or an app to drive less than five minutes in any direction and you found an officer. I also enjoy the fallacy that these criminals are using scanners to commit crimes. Most of the dirtbags committing these violent crimes have no idea what a scanner is and while they may use an app (unlikely) they still get caught.

For the record, Chicago crime is out of control....how do I know? I can listen to them...and NYPD...and LAPD...hiding behind "officer safety" and encryption is not fooling anyone.
 

NMPhillieFan

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The problem for Albuquerque is or was persons following officers around while having portable devices hearing them or tracing calls posting informationin real time. They would interfere with traffic stops and when told to step back the person's would incite others on YouTube or other live platforms to show up in numbers. Like it was said before just takes one bad apple. It don't help they get threats during such to their non emergency line pushing some to decide things. You can thank them auditors rather jobless bums who make money off suckers watching a boring live stream while one jams down canes chicken mumbling garbage at 1am on live stream social media.

You do realize, those exact same YouTubers are still in ABQ doing the same thing, right? As I mentioned, encrypting calls for service will no nothing to protect an officer. In addition to the aforementioned YouTubers, there are actually a few more people that have joined them now. While the encryption of dispatch is what it is, the excuse that it is for officer safety lacks any merit.
 

es93546

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Those large entities are in process of doing same. NYC, Chicago, with lapd having future plans for it.

I lived in New Mexico in the late 1970's and early 1980's. It was my observation that New Mexico had plenty of corruption, crime and incompetency while I was there. In my opinion the state needed people to move in from other states so help out. As an example, living in a small town, that drunk driving was totally out of control. The fatality rate for drunk driving, which was 50% of all accidents was 50% nationwide at the time. In New Mexico it was 75%. I was on a volunteer fire department and an EMT on the town ambulance. When people were driving and drunk, injuring/killing themselves and others, the attitude seemed to be one of resignation, that it was like cancer, nothing could be done to avoid it. I understand that in the last couple of decades the state has really clamped down on that and trying to counter that cultural perspective. I would be they needed the help of "outside" individuals moving there.as part of that effort.

New Mexico had plenty of crime while I lived there. Blaming others who have moved in for all the state's woes is simplistic and using stereotypes. I could give you several hours of conversation about what I saw in New Mexico during my residency there, full of stories interacting with state and local agencies. It wasn't all bad, but far worse than any of the other 3 states I lived in during my career. Also, don't tell me that it was or is that way in rural areas, but much better in big cities, of which New Mexico has 4 (Santa Fe, Albuquerque, Roswell and Las Cruces). It might have been better than the rural areas, but consider the rural counties were some of the worst in the nation. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of some journalists and educators using hard data. The line from one local magazine was "living in rural New Mexico is as close to living in a 3rd world country as one can get inside the boundaries of the U.S.

Our fire department was laughable in its equipment, procedures and training. The guy who came down from the state to do one training session in the four years I was there was terrible. He had basically no presentation of knowledge. There was no oversight from anyone as to how the department was run. No certification of anyone, except for the EMT's, who received a federal or national certificate as a result of the U.S. Department of Transportation as to curriculum.

I had come from Arizona when I moved to New Mexico, them moved on to Nevada and then California during a career with the feds. I worked with agencies in four different states during my career. I base my opinions on that experience.

Don't get me wrong either. New Mexico's landscapes are incredible. The outdoor recreation was fantastic as were the natural features like Carlsbad and White Sands, the National Wildlife Refuges, the National Parks and National Forests, the whitewater rafting in the Gorge of the Rio Grande, the wilderness areas with their great trails, the the state being the site of all those "island in the sky" mountain ranges, the cross country and downhill skiing on such dry snow, the number of pre-historic and historic sites, the scientific facilities, the Sangre de Cristo effect on the mountains at sunset (best I've ever seen anywhere), and on and on. I'm so glad I was able to call the state home for awhile.
 

KE5ZBG

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APD is only one of few NM departments who have encrypted main line channels. Roswell, Sandia, San Miguel, and others have made the switch just like so many departments in Texas as well.

Is San Miguel even running digital? Last I heard faulty equipment was keeping them from even simulcasting..
 

MrAstroSaber

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Is San Miguel even running digital? Last I heard faulty equipment was keeping them from even simulcasting..

San Miguel is using a 5 site 4 channel simulcast installed earlier this year replacing a very old system. New system is operating in Mixed mode until all radios can be upgraded to P25. SO is going back and forth between digital and analog again because they still have some old radios. SO 2 has been encrypted with the plan of switching later this year to complete P25 with encryption on both channels.
 

KE5ZBG

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San Miguel is using a 5 site 4 channel simulcast installed earlier this year replacing a very old system. New system is operating in Mixed mode until all radios can be upgraded to P25. SO is going back and forth between digital and analog again because they still have some old radios. SO 2 has been encrypted with the plan of switching later this year to complete P25 with encryption on both channels.

Ah, good that their upgrade is progressing. Thanks for the update, I haven't been over there in a while!
 

Giddyuptd

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Talking to a old Co worker who currently works for Los Lunas PD was telling me the cluster a pursuit ended up being between APD, them, both county SO's, and NMSP. He said we got these new over priced radios to hear another and we couldn't hear APD. SO couldn't talk to them either and had issues with BCSO in communication. He said so much for the interoperability 🤣 he said NMSP was pretty much in dark as well on BC end. The one sgt for NMSP made comment we should have kept the legacy vhf if wee would be isolated again 🤣

San Miguel is using a 5 site 4 channel simulcast installed earlier this year replacing a very old system. New system is operating in Mixed mode until all radios can be upgraded to P25. SO is going back and forth between digital and analog again because they still have some old radios. SO 2 has been encrypted with the plan of switching later this year to complete P25 with encryption on both channels.
 

bc780l

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This applies to the state, not just ABQ metro:

Interoperability -- or lack thereof:

First: Training
What channels are programmed into my radio?
What are they used for?
How do I access them?
Does each agency train their officers? (HAH!)

I talked to an instructor at the Academy in Santa Fe about radio use. His answer: the local PDs should do that training. (HAH!)

Does each agency have a trained and certified COM/L and COM/T for major events? A coordinator? Are they used? (HAH!)

Second: Radios
What about dual-band 700/800 - VHF radios? The majority of the locals and the state are on VHF, will continue to license VHF, and continue to use VHF in addition to the new 700/800 trunked system. Add a smattering of UHF--in which case tri-band radios are indeed available.

Third: Programming
Yes, yes, the state and many agencies (perhaps??) will be getting access to the new state-wide radio system (really? when?? where?? -- another issue). Do the new (and existing) codeplugs have MANDATORY, STANDARDIZED interop zones programmed in each and every radio? StateTacs? RegionalTacs? NIFOG? (HAH!) Are the interops encryption-free (otherwise it not really interop, is it?) ??

Fourth: Ad hoc Patches
Who has multi-frequency patch capability? Everyone? Who's even thought of it? JPS ACUs are a wonderful solution with two or three multi-band radios to solve many issues.

Fifth: Mentality
There's very little of the above due to the pervasive mentality that there are no real needs for the above. But there are multi-agency, multi-jurisdictional events that require in-depth coordination for success. To be blunt, fire seems to have a much better handle on Incident Command and Comm things than law.

Work at it... else Charlie Foxtrot events will continue.
 

KE5ZBG

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Seems like a pretty big problem. Too bad they couldn't permanently patch one of UNM PD's secure tacs to APD..

My agency usually interfaces with them on the clear channels, and we do not have access to their encryption keys, so that's going to screw us over big time (it's impossible to get dispatch on the phone).
Same with my agency. So much for interoperability right?

Technically that’s what the interop groups are for, but does anyone even monitor those?
We don't here, we have to monitor APD SE just in case they get a call that could spill onto campus. And my officers monitored SE in case they needed backup near campus. But as of right now, we can do neither.
 

MrAstroSaber

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The state has several interop channels. It is up to the end user to know how to find them and use them. Also the state and other dispatch centers also have the interop channels and can even patch them if needed. Now the fun part is channel sharing. So lets use APD for example going to encryption full time. If they want BCSO or State Police to hear them now they will need to share the encryption key with them. If Los Lunas wants to be able to talk with BCSO they will have to get approval to share each others TG. Or they can use one of the several interop channels. So really the only problem is the end radio user not knowing how to find the interop channels, ask dispatch to get with the other department and ask them to move to one of the interop channels and last dispatcher knowing how to patch an interop channel to the main line channel so the officer chasing the car does not have to change channels but other departments can join the interop channel and the case is on. The system is new and end users have to learn to use and departments can share TG so others have them as well. They can also share encryption keys to departments that need them if they wish.
 

bc780l

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You make my point well:
TRAINING and STANDARDS and COORDINATION
There's no excuse for new or old systems to not be planned out and managed for major scenarios--from the get-go.

My agencies (not NM) had:
- Statewide Interop Calling and Tactical Channels, not only trunking, but also NIFOG and state and federal conventional interops
- Regional Interop Calling and Tactical Channels
- A requirement for each PSAP to monitor and respond as required on their respective regional calling channel
- A requirement for all radios on the system to have the statewide, regional, and NIFOG channels programmed in addition to the local channels -- mandatory for grant money procurement
- A requirement for user training upon issue of the new radios, a difficult thing to get agencies to do, sometimes "watch this dvd"

If encryption were to be used on any of the interop channels, keys must be coordinated through state or regional managers, respectively. Because statewide OTAR and OTAP were not yet implemented, this became a real PITA and was usually implemented only for unique or special operations, else left in the clear. And as is directed, no encryption or regular operations on the calling channels ... a regular battle.

You know how to field-strip your firearm? You know how many rounds are available to you? You know that your life may depend on how you use your firearm?

Similarly ... do you know what channels are in your radio? How they are used? How to get to them? You know that your life may depend on you knowing how to use your radio?

//end rant
 

drayd48

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I figured this would be the right place to ask this question. I will be in town for 10 days for Balloon Fiesta. I was looking to program my Unication pager up real quick before I left but had a few questions. I see that there are multiple sites for the county and city on the DTRS system. Do all of these sites carry the same traffic for the county and the city, or does only the ABQ simulcast carry ONLY the city traffic and so forth? I'm looking to monitor both the city and county traffic for fire and ems but didn't know what exact sites to program in to hear everything. Thanks in advance.
 

ChrisABQ

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The majority of the traffic is on the ABQ Simulcast site. APD is now ENC. Everything else is open. Be sure to program Fire and Metro Law interop as well.
 
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