After it KILLED (2) Firemen, they STILL use it!!

[jbonner]

The Philadelphia Fire Department lost two brother firemen to the use of the "Tac" channels instead of using the vastly proven analog fireground channels.

What I don't under stand is WHY are they still using them!!!

Why is the UNION allowing this!

Great radio system Masi. How's it feel to know your part of a radio system that killed these firemen, :shock:

 

[blantonl]

Ok, minus all the emotion in this post, what really happened?

 

[Lancer252]

8/20/04, 2 firefighters were killed while fighting a fire caused by a nitwit growing marijuana in a closet. They were trapped in the basement and called for help but their calls were not heard. Immediately the focus (rightfully so) was on the radios. For one thing, they don't work below ground. That could have been one reason that the calls were not heard. but the real reason was later discovered. The orange emergency button on their radios didn't work. The button was supposed to open a "hot mike" function that would have allowed everyone on the fireground and at fire board to hear the user. But on 9/10/04, Motorola admitted to the PFD that the "hot mike" might not always work. And since the fireground TAC channels are encrypted, sometimes the messages might not get through. What is the use of having an emergency button when it might not work in an emergency. It seems the button works if you brush against the thing, but don't try pressing it. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and hopefully one day Motorola will be called on the carpet for it!

 

[mr_hankey]

not to add fuel to the fire, but why should MOTOROLA be called to the carpet when other vendors (take a guess) also insist on trunked talkgroups for "tactical" use?

what's so hard about putting in a few direct frequencies for tactical fire use into a $6000 radio?

 

[N_Jay]

not to add fuel to the fire, but why should MOTOROLA be called to the carpet when other vendors (take a guess) also insist on trunked talkgroups for "tactical" use?

what's so hard about putting in a few direct frequencies for tactical fire use into a $6000 radio?

Nothing, but it won't help uless someone is listening to those "few direct" channels.

It is a SYSTEM and an SOP problem.

 

[jhooten]

Why would you want to encrypt fire ground channels in the first place? What is so secrete about fighting a fire? It is just one more thing to go wrong. And mutual aid responders will never have the same key if they are encrypted at all.

 

[N_Jay]

Why would you want to encrypt fire ground channels in the first place? What is so secrete about fighting a fire? It is just one more thing to go wrong. And mutual aid responders will never have the same key if they are encrypted at all.

After the MOVE fiasco, they probably want to encrypt EVERYTHING!

 

[JoeyC]

Doesn't sound like the radios contributed to their demise to me. There's no guarantee anyone would have heard anything on the other radios either, and if they could, would they have been able to provide the necessary assistance in time? No one knows.
I happen to agree that encrypting fireground communications can provide NO benefit, especially if thats the only encryption on the system. But I don't know the Philly system...

 

[jgarber311]

Trunked talk groups have NO PLACE on the fireground! The only people who should have a radio set to a trunked talk group is scene command so they have comms with the dispatcher/ station, etc.
When it comes to MISSION CRITICAL ops you can't beat simplex operation, even a conventional repeater on UHF or VHF is better than trunked channels.
When you have firefighters or police lives on the line inside a fire the last thing you need is a software run radio system as your only life line. The firefighter should only have one button to push to get help- not flipping through talkgroups or changing between encryption and non encryption.
Simplex has 7 letters in the word- the first 6 are SIMPLE!
Simple is always easier and faster.
Now the other issue is 800 megahertz and the penetration factor. You still can't beat the 150-170 band and the 450-512 bands.
Also you can't beat proper training not only in how to fight a fire but on how to operate your radio when the heat is on.
Ok- enough from me... thanks for reading.
Jamie KB8TTR
Ohio

 

[Lancer252]

I think that Motorola should be called on the carpet when they sell a system and then say "Oh by the way, that emergency button might not work. You might want to wait for a real emergency before you try it".

 

[W2SJW]

Philly FD's fire apparatus and ambulances share the same talkgroups, just as they used to on the VHF system. My best guess is the encryption might be PFD's way of dealing with the HIPAA laws regarding sensitive patient info being broadcast over the air.

Other than that, I have NO idea what they where thinking with that move on the Tac channels (a similar move as well recently by EMSA in Oklahoma)...

 

[mancow]

Yea, god forbid we "offend" anyone by telling the world on via radio that they have aids or whatever else. It's much better that someone die.

I just heard a talk radio guy say that liberalism is a mental disorder. Here's more proof. :roll:


mancow

 

[mlevin]

Since the idendity of a patient is never transmitted, HIPPA has no effect. There have been threads about this before. There's no reason why a fireground channel should be encrypted.

 

[Markef]

It is not the radios but the training in using the system and the on scene commander to make sure that someone is monitoring all channels. That someone should be on scene and able to hear and reply to any emergency. A back up plan should be in place if not get one. The blame is not Motorola it is the people who know the problem and do nothing. Hindsight is 20-20. Foresight is 20-400.

 

[WesFFXFire]

Where I work we went to a Motorola 800 trunking system a few years back. And we were told about a back up system called "FailSoft" that the radio system would switch to in case the trunkng system crashed. We regularly test this system each month to ensure it is working properly, because in the beginning it did not. All of these systems, including the emer buttons should have been tested and need to be tested on a regular basis. Once all of these systems are operational it's up to the Dept using it to insure all of the systems are working, not somone from Motorola. Someone should have tested the emergency button and made sure they worked properly instead of trusting someone from outside the dept then waited until a real fire where people were trapped to see if it worked or not.

 

[WesFFXFire]

And I'll be the first to admit the 800 trunking may not be perfect, but niether was our old 460mhz. Even with the old system we have dead spots everywhere and were limited to only 5 channels. We have pretty good coverage now with our system (although we had to add 3 tower sites to ensure better coverage, now we have 11 towers). But in the long run its better than the old systems.

 

[Markef]

Thanks for echoing my comment. I do not have the expert knowlege of 800 systems but as a member of the Fresno VFD in Texas we check our radios every week. The communications officer sees that we all know how to use them. We have never had a problem with Motorola. The sign of a quality department is in its training and leadership. Sounds like someone need to look long and hard at both.

 

[n4voxgill]

Like Lindsay said, there is a lot of typing but no information on exactly what happened. It may be the radios, it may be the system and it may had been the firemen made an error.

 

[Lancer252]

n4xoggil,

The info I posted is from the media accounts and some details from the investigation. The emergency buttons seem to have been a problem from the start. They engage very easily, sometimes without the knowledge of the user. More so on the PPD side due to more use. If anything, some regard them as joke because they are constantly going off. I really don't think there will ever be an agreement on whether the radios, the systems, the users or Motorola is at fault.

 

[WayneH]

I think that Motorola should be called on the carpet when they sell a system and then say "Oh by the way, that emergency button might not work. You might want to wait for a real emergency before you try it".

Motorola is not responsible. Motorola is responsible for installing a network and getting it up and running per the bid. Motorola does not program subscriber radios or setup the details, that's the customer's problem and if it was a programming issue here then it certainly was the customer's fault. Making the emergency button work and configuring the programming for the radio to operate appropriately is the customer's problem. They are given the classes and instructed what to do, if they don't follow it, T.S.! It's not Motorola's fault if someone buys something, ignores or doesn't ask for help, and then endangers a life. It's like idiots sueing McDonalds for burning themselves with coffee because they didn't want to just plain own up to being complete and utter morons.

Blaming Motorola is just plain ignorant. This isn't some Mom and Pop company who will go, 'we thought by doing whatever it would benefit you, even though you didn't pay us for it.' They do what they are paid for, and that's it. Liability, liability, liability.

-Wayne