After it KILLED (2) Firemen, they STILL use it!!

[LGLHOOK]

I totally agree with Wayne. I do think it is very stupid to encrypt tac channels to secure "patient information" for the simple reason that if someone has invented a system to be secure, u can bet your butt someone has invented a way around it. Take the pro-96 for example. Some of the local police departments have encrypted swat channels here and low and behold, my super pro-96 will pick up every last word they say on the "super secret channels".

 

[RADIOGUY2002]

Radio failure

I think Motorola and the citys communications dept are both at fault. I do agree that some tac channels such as fireground shall not be encrypted. And we all should know that what ever type of radio it is, basements alwys reak havc with communications. The city should have test their radios, portables first in every cirtical situations and especially in basements. This should have been done as a precaution to officers saftey slash firefighters saftey, espically considering past history with trunked 800mhz radios. I do feel motorola however should take some blame as well, as far as not attempting to fixed the prosed prolbem knowing that it could cause death. It does not seem like a very good stand point for them as a company overall. And what good is a command scene if the officers or firefighters can reach there engine company or command van much less the communications center. My next question is why not create a fail safe conventional frequency on the trunked portable attached to a mobile on site repeater, its not like they can not afford it. Now the city has to pay for funneral costs and issuarnce liability to the familes, all because precautions were not put in place. This will contuine to happen unless someone starts making a stance for radios to be tested properily. If the portable fails especially in a major city like this, why even brother proceding with the mobiles or other consoles for that matter. Trunked system were designed to relieve the congestion, not make more prolbems. Training is always requried when operating a 3,000 dolar radio, but how fast can you train when your used to a conventional system and are being forced into in a time line. I known serveral agencies that have made the switch, but uniqually keep that conventional radio in the emergency break glass case if requried. Always keep one analog conventional channel up, just for this reason. I hate to be the communication director who has to try and expalin this one, because some one failed to do their homework. But, before we put the finger just on one person, maybe the situation is a tad bit more complicated then first seen. Everyone in this incident did somthng that was wrong on some level, who gits the worst level of assigned to them.

And no I do not care for motorola radios (blaming is a two way street), because of customers stories and reputation that are leading them these days. Were not talking about the bricks that could take a beating anymore, were talking about cheapily made computer chips that do fail at times not crystals. Something to think about as well and lapels that cost 100 dollars. One wresting incident of taking done a subject or carring a fire victim out and the lapel drops their goes 100 dollars, try explain that one to your Lt. or in the police world shift supervisor either coroporal or sgt.

Thanks for the space for the rant, and hopefully one day we can save people instead of running anarchy through civil ligation, because of imporper steps taken on both parties. Instead of killing people, lets try and save them instead.

Puzzling, encrytped fireground channels on every level. Merci channels and ambulances to hospitals are and a different story all together.

 

[scnnr]

I totally agree with Wayne. I do think it is very stupid to encrypt tac channels to secure "patient information" for the simple reason that if someone has invented a system to be secure, u can bet your butt someone has invented a way around it. Take the pro-96 for example. Some of the local police departments have encrypted swat channels here and low and behold, my super pro-96 will pick up every last word they say on the "super secret channels".

The pro 96 does not pick up encrypted tg's. If you are hearing the local swat guys chattering away, it is because some of the team members have forgotten to switch their radios to encryption. That is why you will hear some of the team talk in the clear.

That is a good example of poor training of the use of their radios.

 

[LGLHOOK]

Well it sure is funny thet some of the talkgroups marked "encripted" I sure can hear. The come across with somewhat of a computer generated voice but you can hear every word that they are saying. I can hear them on my pro-96 but not on my pro-2067.

 

[JoeyC]

Well it sure is funny thet some of the talkgroups marked "encripted" I sure can hear. The come across with somewhat of a computer generated voice but you can hear every word that they are saying. I can hear them on my pro-96 but not on my pro-2067.

As the previous guy stated, you CAN NOT pick up encrypted talkgroups on a PRO-96 or any other scanner. The reason you can hear something on the PRO-96 and not the 2067 is they are digital signals. NOT ENCRYPTED. The 2067 doesn't do digital.

 

[WayneH]

He's not stating his scanner can decrypt the talkgroups, he's saying the talkgroups that they state are supposed to be encrypted and are "supersecret" can still be received.

Aw, ya know what, nevermind. My PRO-96 really picks up encrypted talkgroups. I know the secret and I'm not telling anyone. Try to solve that skeptics!

-W

 

[JoeyC]

My Unidens pick up all the Encrypted talkgroups as well.

 

[suttles1972]

As a firefighter myself, I've been in situations where I had to go into basements of many of our downtown buildings. Most of the time, it is where the alarm panels or the sprinkler pumps are located. However, being below ground does create a nightmare for communications with 800. That is why many jurisdictions are taking notice and have decided to use 800 simplex channels to use as operations channels. But, I'm unclear on if the traditional fireground or tac channels will be completely eliminated. And as for the use of comms where the control channel isn't heard, a simplex channel is definitely a way to go.
Now as for the 2 firefighters in Philly. If Motorola or the customer haven't considered installing small yagi beams throughout the basement of structures, firefighters frequent, it's gonna always be a major nightmare for on scene communications. And Motorola is very aware of the below ground comms situation. This isn't a new story to Moto. However, it is very unfortunate that some of our own, have to die, before the customer and Moto take heed to the seriousness of this problem.
Also, to add. If you all are picking up talkgroups that are suppose to be encrypted, then the encryption is disable. No scanner can pick up encryption, period. In P25 systems, it'll sound like scrambling or computer music (blips, bleeps and the sounds of buzzing. Similar to the control channel noise). Analog will sound like white noise.
Now back to the subject matter. I too, am puzzled on why any FD will encrypt FG or tac channels. In every jurisdiction I've visited, hospitals have their own communication paths for EMS to use for Med-Control and patient info. Therefore, if HIPPA is a concern, then encrypt the ambulance to hospitals talk-paths and leave the fireground and tac channels alone. Encryption can degrade the strength of comm transmissions and can creates a large consumption of battery power to portables. This along is major nightmare for any public safety worker. So I hope, instead playing the blame game, that Moto and the customer can compromise on this matter and try to prevent it from happening again.
My moment of edgewise.

 

[mr_hankey]

how much of this issue is the fact that TDMA/CDMA is a poorer-performer in a basement than a less-efficient use of the bandwidth?

you'd have to be out of your mind to be down in a basement fighting a structure fire with, say, a Nextel phone, but isn't this the same thing?

OpenSky IS TDMA/CDMA, right?

 

[LGLHOOK]

Thanks for the back Wayne. I will let those guys think what they want from thier own states, but I know what i can listen to here in Utah.

 

[suttles1972]

how much of this issue is the fact that TDMA/CDMA is a poorer-performer in a basement than a less-efficient use of the bandwidth?

you'd have to be out of your mind to be down in a basement fighting a structure fire with, say, a Nextel phone, but isn't this the same thing?

OpenSky IS TDMA/CDMA, right?

Philadelphia Fire Dept uses a Motorola 3.6K baud P25 system. The OpenSky format is used for the State of Penn. These are two different systems with it's own digital protocol, in which I'm clear that everyone is aware of. And I agree with you Mr Hankey. Why would you take non-instrinsically safe radio and use it on a fireground? Moto, EF Johnson, and M/A Com/Tyco have done the research on this matter and have discovered that their radios ARE capable of working in such operations and not cause an explosion in high flammable environments. I am unclear on if OpenSky can be used for such an operation. That's why, you'll see more Moto radios on the market for fire departments.
I'm not here to call anyone out to a debate, but to have you understand that their are many factors that play into the what's and why's of any firefighter going into a basement and fighting a fire.
First off, was anyone in the basement. As a firefighter myself, I have done a lot of things, most may feel that I'm out of my mind on, due to reports of a person trapped. I've defaced property and injured myself as a consequence for that. And when your adrenaline is going, you don't think about if your radio is going to work properly or not. It's an afterthought. So My Hankey, I'm certain that if you were a victim of a working fire and is trapped, your last concerns would be on if my radio is able to communicate to the outside world.

 

[greg_miotke]

Look at Oakland County,MI is Trying to use OpenSky System 4yrs later System is Still Not Working,Over 100 Mil Spent in Tax Money what a Waste,There Still Running Old Moto Analog System which is Running Great,They Could upgrade to New 9600Baud System for Under 800,000 and be Compable with The Michigan State System,In Other Words OpenSky is Junk......
The Moto 3600Baud Ditiagl System By Far Works the Best!!!!

 

[greenthumb]

For one thing, they don't work below ground. That could have been one reason that the calls were not heard. but the real reason was later discovered. The orange emergency button on their radios didn't work. The button was supposed to open a "hot mike" function that would have allowed everyone on the fireground and at fire board to hear the user.

If the radio was "OUT OF RANGE" to begin with, pushing the emergency button won't magically put the radio in range so that the emergency can get through. If the radio's "EMERGENCY" ISW doesn't make it to the central controller, the radio won't receive an acknowledgement from the central controller that tells the radio to activate the emergency hot mic feature. If you're out of range, you're out of range and there's nothing you can do but get back in range

 

[greenthumb]

how much of this issue is the fact that TDMA/CDMA is a poorer-performer in a basement than a less-efficient use of the bandwidth?

you'd have to be out of your mind to be down in a basement fighting a structure fire with, say, a Nextel phone, but isn't this the same thing?

OpenSky IS TDMA/CDMA, right?

I believe so, but as a previous poster said, this is a Motorola digital system and is FDMA. The digital format used by Motorola is more spectrally efficient than analog (you can put it into a narrower bandwidth). Additionally, it has been demonstrated that given a very weak signal voltage that is just outside of the understandable range for analog will be recovered and understandable in digital. This may be a very small range where this is true, but every little bit helps.

 

[greenthumb]

even a conventional repeater on UHF or VHF is better than trunked channels.

So you're telling me that when a conventional repeater (name the band, I don't care) is put into a trunked system (that's essentially what a trunked system is - several conventional repeaters tied to a computer) the repeater magically performs worse?! :shock:

 

[jgarber311]

Yes! That is exactly what I mean- when your radio is software driven- it will inherently fail.

Look at Windows operating system- it fails very often- so you would put your life in the hands of a system driven by a computer application that is known to fail?
But in all fairness, conventional radio systems do fail too. Trunked systems do have their place in the world also. And even more to the point there some trunked radio systems that are really well engineered that do work.

This is just my opinion and the opinion of a reputable radio vendor in my area.

 

[Samuel]

If the controller fails then the system should go into failsoft mode so the system should work even if the computer crashes.

 

[INDY72]

With apologies.... Hmm not trust a computer to control things? Hmmmm ok .. lets go with that.. Do NOT trust your vehicle.. it IS computer controlled. Definitely do NOT trust any aircraft, too many computers. And if you think about most modern conventional radio systems,.. there is a degree of computer controlling for them too... Oh lets not forget, do NOT trust any phone system as thier are computers controlling the switching, routing etc,... Hmmmm lets go back to the tin can on string days???

Before you flame me saying that conventional is not computer controlled... only the most ancient of radios use crystals for frequencies.. almost ALL modern radios use a computer controled synthesizing system. Sorry but I think I will trust a modern system with failsafes and redundant protocols over a crystal based antique anyday.

 

[greenthumb]

Yes! That is exactly what I mean- when your radio is software driven- it will inherently fail.

I think your statement should read "when your radio is electronically driven, it will inherently fail." Just because it is software-driven does not mean it is GOING to fail. That statement simply is not true.

Look at Windows operating system- it fails very often- so you would put your life in the hands of a system driven by a computer application that is known to fail?

Nope. And these radio systems are not being run by Microsoft Windows - the back end may be Microsoft Windows for administrative applications and statistics (but i'm thinking they've changed to Unix) - but the firmware in the controllers is NOT Microsoft Windows! Bad analogy and I would (and have) put my life in the hands of one of these systems. The hardware and firmware platforms that these systems run on are VERY VERY stable...hell...look at all of the old 6809 monsters around chugging away after 20 years.

But in all fairness, conventional radio systems do fail too. Trunked systems do have their place in the world also. And even more to the point there some trunked radio systems that are really well engineered that do work.

Anything run by electronics will have a chance of some day failing. I don't think that trunked systems have any more/less chance of failing than any other system. Just like all systems - find its weakest link and that's where you will have problems (e.g. T-1, microwave, DS1, etc.).

This is just my opinion and the opinion of a reputable radio vendor in my area.

blah blah....if you say something, it is YOUR opinion - don't "lean" on others.

 

[WayneH]

Look at Windows operating system- it fails very often- so you would put your life in the hands of a system driven by a computer application that is known to fail?

Nope. And these radio systems are not being run by Microsoft Windows - the back end may be Microsoft Windows for administrative applications and statistics (but i'm thinking they've changed to Unix) - but the firmware in the controllers is NOT Microsoft Windows! Bad analogy and I would (and have) put my life in the hands of one of these systems. The hardware and firmware platforms that these systems run on are VERY VERY stable...hell...look at all of the old 6809 monsters around chugging away after 20 years.

Exactly. The Zone Controller runs off a tailored Unix OS with an X interface. So we definitely can't blame the OS since a majority of the telecom PSTN runs off a tailored Unix interface (Lucent 5E) that also allows for an X interface.

It takes a lot for a Motorola controller to flake out. In this case the system is even more redundant than a standard 6809 single or Simulcast site since it's a SmartZone network.

The issue here is signal, and as someone else stated it's incredibly difficult to have great coverage when you're below ground, regardless of trunked or conv operation. This is another good example why fireground comms should be and stay simplex.

-Wayne