"All-Hands" Signal 13 and a Moral Dilemma

[TinEar]

Last night there was an Anne Arundel County "all-hands" Signal 13 declared in pursuit of an armed robber that apparently traded shots with an officer. The activity lasted for several hours, involved the entire Southern District force, several responders (up to half a dozen) from each of the other three AA county Districts, Maryland State Police, Annapolis Police Department, four teams of Special Ops consisting of two from Anne Arundel, one from Annapolis and a ten member squad from Howard County, four K9 units, a police helicopter and a standby helo in case the first had to leave for refueling - along with standby units from the AA County Fire Department.

They eventually caught their man.

Here's the problem though: I caught about 99% of the action with multiple scanners and learned a great deal about how the department responds to an operational emergency and about their operational tactics including a lot of personal information during the operation. I was having a moral dilemma for a few minutes about whether to post any of it here and have definitely decided that it would be wrong to do it. It got me thinking about what we should or should not post to these forums and where our hobby ends and our responsibilities to our communities takes over. I've made that decision for myself but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this issue.

 

[mlevin]

As usual, I miss the action :roll:

The FCC prohibits you telling anybody else what you have heard on the scanner. The law isn't specific and is pretty much left up to your interpretation. As for your moral dillema, posting or telling anyone personal information I would definately not do. But posting other specifics, like the people who responded, the channels used, etc. ect. I don't see anything wrong with that. That info could've been gained from anyone listening to a scanner. It was put out over the air, so as long as it doesn't entail highly classified operating procedures, or could possibly interfere with police ops, why not post it.

I heard on a few instances friends or neighbors get pulled over, and I listen to the 27,28,29 come back. I've also have seen medics at a neighbors house and then listen to the medical consult. I would never give out a persons medical history, even though I'm not bound by HIPPA.
I'm not exactly sure if I helped your dillema any, but this is just my opinions based on past experiences.

 

[davenkaryn]

That is an interesting point. Being new to the hobby, I can't draw on experience to provide an informative opinion. But, I would think that whatever goes out over the air is public information. If they didn't want the public to hear it, it would be encrypted. As far as posting details about the chase and the shootout, I don't see what harm that would do. In this instance, they caught the suspect, but if they hadn't and he was still out there somewhere, your information posted here might help catch him. I'm interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.

 

[N_Jay]

That is an interesting point. Being new to the hobby, I can't draw on experience to provide an informative opinion. But, I would think that whatever goes out over the air is public information. If they didn't want the public to hear it, it would be encrypted. As far as posting details about the chase and the shootout, I don't see what harm that would do. In this instance, they caught the suspect, but if they hadn't and he was still out there somewhere, your information posted here might help catch him. I'm interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.

Its a hottly debated topic because the laws covering it are scattered all over the place.

In general, (I think) it is understood that while you have the right to receive almost any signal (except those specifically restricted, such as Cellular), you do not have the right to disclose the contents, nor use the information for personal profit unless it is a Broadcast, Amature, or Emergency transmission.

Note: Broadcast in this sense is a legal definition "intended for reception by the general public", not the technical definition "transmitted".

You are also not allowed to try to break an encrypted message.
HIPPA adds a whole new level of complexity. I do not know what the "third party" requirments may be more may become. :evil:

 

[wadeless28]

What you need to look at is how the breaking news pager networks operate. They provide some specifics, but no personal information. The tipsters that provide the information have guidelines they must follow. This gives the news organizations and other subscribers enough information to figure out if the item is news worthy or not. Posting similar information, like that of the pager networks, should not pose a problem.

Morals are different from person to person. I myself do not find it morally wrong to "post incidents like that to world” but others (some I know) say I am wrong to "gossip" about the misfortunes of others. Whatever floats your boat I say.

Okay, Now that the chase is over, and the actors are in custody. What happened???? Enquiring minds want to know!!!! :lol: Obviously I was not listening last night (yes I am the dummy). :?

Mike

 

[TinEar]

The "What Happened?" question is not a problem answering. An armed robber held up someone apparently that had just made a withdrawal from a bank's ATM. He was spotted by a Southern District officer and a foot chase began. During the chase they traded shots at each other. The officer saw the perp go behind a four-story apartment building and concluded that he had to have gone inside the building. He called for help, the countywide Signal 13 was issued and we had about 50 emergency vehicles respond to the location. The Special Ops people were called because all apartments and potential hiding places in the apartment building had to be searched. The teams swept the building in a slow, methodical fashion over a period of hours and had just about finished their first sweep and were about to begin trading floors among the teams when someone yelled they had the guy in custody. The amazing irony was that he was not ever in the building. He had hidden behind an air conditioning unit just outside the building where a K9 unit dog suddenly got a whiff of him and began barking and leading his handler to him. He was captured and was still armed.

The original officer in the foot chase had a moment of anxiety because he had slipped and fallen into a big mud puddle and believed his service weapon might not be able to fire. At the time, he was alone behind the building awaiting the arrival of the first responders. They arrived before he had to find out the answer.

The part of the story I'm having trouble with is the operational channels used because, according to the traffic, there was only one channel where AA, Annapolis and Howard County could all talk together. It would be a very simple task to jam that channel if someone wanted to prevent comms in the future. There is also the fact that telephone numbers were broadcast for just about everyone in command in our area. Those, I would never print. Also the names of everyone on the Special Ops teams were used. I wouldn't print those either. There were also certain tactics used to coordinate among the teams and certain equipment used in the operation that I don't think I'd like to have the "bad" guys knowing about before they plan to do something. As far as the comment about encrypting the info if they really wanted it kept secret does not apply simply because they had no choice - that equipment wasn't available to them.

So, that's basically what happened and what all the fuss was about. When an officer is shot at, they go all out to protect their own. Good for them.

 

[RadioJonD]

Bottom line, you shared only what you felt comfortable with. I think you told the main points without infringing on anyone's rights. And if you made a recording of the persuit, you could edit out the names, phone numbers, etc. before sharing. We all reflect well on the hobby when we use discretion. As for radio channel usage, anyone with an intent to jam to elude will likely already know where to do so before they commit a crime.

 

[RadioJonD]

Bottom line, you shared only what you felt comfortable with. I think you told the main points without infringing on anyone's rights. And if you made a recording of the persuit, you could edit out the names, phone numbers, etc. before sharing. We all reflect well on the hobby when we use discretion. As for radio channel usage, anyone with an intent to jam to elude will likely already know where to do so before they commit a crime.

 

[wadeless28]

Thats Interesting

"The part of the story I'm having trouble with is the operational channels used because, according to the traffic, there was only one channel where AA, Annapolis and Howard County could all talk together. "

Never repeat a phone number...That is not good.

You need to look at it this way. If you were listening and surmised that, then the bad guy figured that out also. You also need to remember that it would be very difficult if not impossible to jam just a talkgroup. If it was a freq, then that is easier, but remember there are 14 others to use. This is all part of the scannist hobby to find new TG's or freqs. Pager services post the TG's used on incidents to allow others to follow the action. If a TG can be compromised, the agency can always use, or even create another to complete the same task, and believe it or not, with relative ease, if you are properly trained and have procedures in place to do so.

Hey, remember. The good stuff will be encrypted, no matter what happens.

Mike

 

[TinEar]

Yes, I tend to agree that in retrospect my comment about "jamming" is probably not valid in a trunking situation considering that talkgroups can be reallocated or newly created as necessary. So these days we need to jam the control channel and its alternates to block a system from operating. Hmmm...simple enough. You can tell that I'm still living in the past and thinking about the old days from that comment. So okay, names, telephone numbers, operational tactics remain off limits and then it comes down to what each of us feels is right or wrong to print of the remainder. That's why I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of others and why I posted the original question. Keep 'em coming.

 

[bear105]

The part of the story I'm having trouble with is the operational channels used because, according to the traffic, there was only one channel where AA, Annapolis and Howard County could all talk together.

Tinear, these are the type of channels I am actively searching for as its where the important stuff is gonna happen in an emergency. Lessons learned from 9/11 etc.

I do think your right for being concerned about "what" to share. Just shows responsibility. Some of the other posts indicating personal info and phone numbers as "off-limits" are bang on. I'd even throw in Special Ops tactics as very sensitive.

Personally, I would share the radio system information, such as Talkgroups, frequencies etc and General users (Police SWAT, K-9 etc.) but not individuals. I realize this may be breaking certain laws, but I'm not going past what we have in the RR Database.

 

[davenkaryn]

"...where our hobby ends and our responsibilities to our communities takes over." I think the answer to this particular question is pretty straight forward. You wouldn't do anything to intentionally harm those residents of your community (I would hope not anyway). So if posting specific tactics and telephone numbers would jeopordize the safety of the community, I would hope any individual would refrain from doing so. I'm not trying to stifle anyone's First Amendment rights, but I think it has a lot in common with yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. I guess what I'm trying to say is that collectively, we as scanning-enthusiasts would not intentionally do anything to jeopordize the safety of our community. You did a great job of reporting the news without giving out too much information.

 

[iceman47]

THis is precisely why departments go to digital and crypto to keep people with scanners from telling others what they hear on the air.
The more you tell will of course cause Public Safety Organizations to move faster to develop ways of keeping you from scanning.

The Law is definitive in it's words.
You may not reveal what you heard to anyone who was not a party to the original transmission.
If you do you may be suprised when a guy in a suit and sunglasses knocks at your door and say's "YOU IN A HEAP OF TROUBLE BOY".
Perhaps, the Patriot Act would apply?

Simply stated, keep quiet or you will destroy scanning for those who enjoy the hobby!

See the previous topic on "Posting Federal Call Signs"

 

[rdale]

"Simply stated, keep quiet or you will destroy scanning for those who enjoy the hobby!"

What he did is clearly not going to destroy scanning... relax...

 

[iceman47]

I am relaxed.
Actually, I don't really care since it won't affect me.
Only stating the facts as they really are.

 

[Llwellyn]

I'm going to throw my comments in here...

If your radio can decode the trunked information (a Trunktracker scanner) or you're using Trunker or something similar... would the TG and Radio ID's be considered something you listened to "over the air" and be covered under the statutes? If so, then everyone who has submitted to this database should go turn themselves in right now for "damaging the scanning hobby". If not, then why discourage it being posted?

Phone numbers, officers names, etc... are clearly something that should never be posted... not just morally but it makes sense... at that point, you're hovering dangerously close to wiretapping unintentionally; providing others with that info would cross the line, as well as be in violation of the statute that says you cannot share what you hear.

 

[TinEar]

I guess this topic has run its course so thanks to everyone that replied. It appears that we have generally the same thoughts - whether locally or around the country considering the remarks from the posters in Alabama, Michigan and Nevada. We all agree that things like telephone numbers and names should never appear in print and special ops tactics are probably considered off limits too. Specific channels used during major operations are where we have some disagreement. Yes, all the talkgroups are contained in the database but which will be used during certain categories of events are left up to us to learn. I was dead set against printing those channels when I started this thread but am wavering just a bit now. All I feel comfortable giving out at this point is that this major operation was contained to the OPS channels. I think that's fairly intuitive anyway and would be quickly scanned by anyone following an operation. It appears that just about everyone feels some responsibility to the good of their communities and that's a healthy attitude to have in this hobby. Thanks again for your comments.