Amateur radio digital voice rant

[MTS2000des]

A few weeks ago the "question of the night" on the Atlanta Radio Club Sunday night net was: gripes.

The best answer I heard was (and I am paraphrasing here), is that amateur radio has room enough spectrum wise for EVERYONE to experiment, play and push the limits.

So why is it that so many hams go out of their way to bash, belittle and even interfere with their fellow hams for their chosen mode or activity?

Simply put, if you don't like what mode or activity someone is exercising their privileges with, OPERATE YOUR VFO accordingly.

But please do not get in the way! so long as they are lawfully operating their station, if you don't like or agree with their chosen mode, topic of conversation, or activity (RACES, AUXCOMM, ARES, DIGITAL VOICE, HF, etc) then leave them ALONE and go play somewhere else.

There is room enough for ALL digital modes and no one should condemn others for wanting to experiment. I personally don't care for D-Star.
But I don't get on D-star repeaters and prevent others from doing so.

Likewise, if you don't like my DMR and NXDN, don't try to jam my transmissions.

Let's all be adults.

 

[prcguy]

I don't think that's the reason and it's more related to a number of companies developing something for sale (a digital mode) and the one that gets the most customers wins. The winner can simply be the result of heavy advertising or sometimes the customers actually figure out what's best and the better product wins.

Take VHS vs Beta years ago, Sony had by far a technically better system but two big rivals teamed up on the VHS side and eventually Beta was pushed out. Icom has their flavor of digital and Yaesu now has a different one and neither are going to team up, so the public will decide which one will eventually get scrapped.

I personally have not used DSTAR or Yaesu Fusion, but am a fan of P25 and DMR. Too bad the amateur mfrs do not seem interested in producing radios in either P25 or DMR, I think adopting a digital mode already in use with commercial radios or public service would be the best way to go.
prcguy

I'm not here to argue one digital flavor over the other.
The point I'm trying to make is there are reasons why we have so many to chose from. What works well for one person may not work well for another.

Its easy for me to see why D-star has become so popular why others haven't. Even though I don't use d-star any longer. The OP was complaining there are so many to choose from or you have to buy "a dozen different radios". On the one hand, that's inconvenient, I certainly agree but on the other hand, it gives us more choices for things that make serve our individual needs better. They can all be bridged together if the network admins would permit that and that, in my opinion, is more to blame than manufacturers that won't make an all-in-one radio. An unwillingness to want to cooperate amongst for-profit competitors but an unwillingess to want to cooperate amongst hams is something I don't fully understand.

 

[Kirk]

Why am I on DMR?

1. No competing ham digital system in my area. No P25, D-Star, NXDN, etc. It's DMR or analog here.
2. Wanted to play with a new mode and talk to new people. I was tired of the same old thing on the local repeaters.
3. Low cost of entry. A CS-700 is $180. Very reasonable.

After having used it, I really like it. Here's why:

1. Using 12.5kHz of bandwidth to support two voice channels makes sense with the limited spectrum we have. There are many areas where there are no repeater pairs available. Moving to narrowband will help more hams that desire to put repeaters on the air get the frequencies they need.
2. Ease of linking. I'm not a repeater owner, but those that I've talked to talk about how easy it is to use IP Site Connect to link repeaters to each other or to a C-Bridge. No complicated add on boards, computers running Linux or 420/900MHz link radios with their assorted issues.
3. Wide variety of talkgroups available. Local, regional, continent and worldwide, plus special interest talkgroups.
4. Audio. While it did take some getting used to, I really like not hearing squelch tail crashes, roger beeps (excuse me: courtesy tones) and all of the other noise on analog FM repeaters.

 

[KF5YDR]

I like roger beeps. Confirmation of end of transmission is good comms. I imagine you can set that up on a DMR repeater, though.

 

[Kirk]

It's a subscriber unit (ie: your radio) setting rather than at the repeater. Everybody wins.

 

[KF5YDR]

Oh, rad. More options is better. I wish Houston had a DMR repeater, it sounds like a fun system to play with. Does DMR do soft ID's?

 

[rapidcharger]

I don't think that's the reason and it's more related to a number of companies developing something for sale (a digital mode) and the one that gets the most customers wins. The winner can simply be the result of heavy advertising or sometimes the customers actually figure out what's best and the better product wins.

Take VHS vs Beta years ago, Sony had by far a technically better system but two big rivals teamed up on the VHS side and eventually Beta was pushed out. Icom has their flavor of digital and Yaesu now has a different one and neither are going to team up, so the public will decide which one will eventually get scrapped.

I personally have not used DSTAR or Yaesu Fusion, but am a fan of P25 and DMR. Too bad the amateur mfrs do not seem interested in producing radios in either P25 or DMR, I think adopting a digital mode already in use with commercial radios or public service would be the best way to go.
prcguy

But P25 wasn't developed as a coalition between manufacturers. It's a standard that was created by a couple of private trade associations that aimed at selling race-to-waste infrastructure to government agencies and blowing untold billions of dollars in the military-industrial complex. P25 is flawed and it's imperfect and it has no relevance to hams or even private businesses. Why on Earth would the amateur mfrs be interested in it?

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love using my $2500 P25 radio that has $500 in tech upgrades on the one and only p25 repeater in my city of 6 million people and I think it sounds great but that's not the only repeater that sounds great.

And not even public service is going to be using P25 forever. It's not called "the race-to-waste" for nothing. They're already moving on to phase ii, lte and they aren't even using the same bands as hams. And even if they were, they don't want us on their closed networks.

I'm continually perplexed by people who say this.
It makes dollas. But it don't make sense.

 

[rapidcharger]

Oh, rad. More options is better. I wish Houston had a DMR repeater, it sounds like a fun system to play with. Does DMR do soft ID's?

They only cost about $1500 for the box itself. Factor in another 2 Gs for everything else depending.
Unfortunately there's no dongles or DVAPS like with D-star so if you want to get on the air and there's no repeaters you have to put your own up. But lots of people have. Lots and lots of backyard DMR repeaters out there.

 

[lep]

But P25 wasn't developed as a coalition between manufacturers..

I was present at the ITU -R Study Group meeting at ITU-HQ in Geneva, Switzerland a few years ago, when APCO P-25 was approved as an international standard. It certainly WAS developed by a coalition, that's what APCO is. Part of the ITU requirements for adoption of a standard is that if there are patent holders of the intellectual property, they have to agree to license ANY manufacturer to use the standard on normal commercial terms. Many of the digital protocols in use by manufacturers are NOT ITU approved international standards, such as, for example MOTORBO which is a proprietary protocol of a manufacturer not at all an international standard that has been through the complex process to become an approved international standard.

 

[AK9R]

This is your moderator speaking...for the second time.

Play nice.

If you have something useful and on topic to contribute to the thread, feel free to post. If not, don't bother.

 

[N4KVE]

With me it was simple. My first digital radio was a UHF Astro Saber. Scanned the local repeaters for a while, & absolutely no activity. Meanwhile, many friends are having fun on DMR. But I'm stubborn, so it's Imbe, or nothing. At the Orlando Hamfest I ran into a few of my DMR friends, & played with a few of their radios. That hooked me, so I got a XPR radio, & had my friend program in the repeaters in Florida. Plenty of activity there. Not on D-Star because I don't know anyone with a D-Star radio. So with me it wasn't anything to do with which is the better format. It's just that many of my friends are on DMR, & none are on D-Star. I still use Imbe, & V-selp for simplex use.

 

[rapidcharger]

With me it was simple. My first digital radio was a UHF Astro Saber. Scanned the local repeaters for a while, & absolutely no activity. Meanwhile, many friends are having fun on DMR. But I'm stubborn, so it's Imbe, or nothing. At the Orlando Hamfest I ran into a few of my DMR friends, & played with a few of their radios. That hooked me, so I got a XPR radio, & had my friend program in the repeaters in Florida. Plenty of activity there. Not on D-Star because I don't know anyone with a D-Star radio. So with me it wasn't anything to do with which is the better format. It's just that many of my friends are on DMR, & none are on D-Star. I still use Imbe, & V-selp for simplex use.

And it's nice to have that choice!

That's my point.

I rest my case.

 

[N8OHU]

I was present at the ITU -R Study Group meeting at ITU-HQ in Geneva, Switzerland a few years ago, when APCO P-25 was approved as an international standard. It certainly WAS developed by a coalition, that's what APCO is. Part of the ITU requirements for adoption of a standard is that if there are patent holders of the intellectual property, they have to agree to license ANY manufacturer to use the standard on normal commercial terms. Many of the digital protocols in use by manufacturers are NOT ITU approved international standards, such as, for example MOTORBO which is a proprietary protocol of a manufacturer not at all an international standard that has been through the complex process to become an approved international standard.

Actually, if I read the standards for DMR correctly, the features of Motorola's implementation (MotoTRBO) would fall under the classification of Manufacturer Specific additions, which are allowed. This is why the Amateur MotoTRBO systems are able to use multiple vendor radios; not all features are interoperable, but the basics work to allow communication.

 

[N8OHU]

I initially went full bore into DStar when it was first introduced but quickly found the narrow 6.25khz bandwidth resulted in poor audio quality (compared to analog) which turned me off. The "talking into a barrel" audio affect was a major turn-off for me, so now I'm switching over to Yaesu's Fusion system because in its wider digital mode it sounds better than DStar. Plus if Yaesu ever gets around to releasing their new WIRES-X Internet Interface hams will be able to link their digital equipment long distances from station directly to any other station via the internet, without the need to tie up a repeater. This is something DStar hasn't been designed to do. Plus I like the idea that Yaesu has an option camera microphone that permits the operator to capture a photo and transmit it over the air to another Fusion equipped station. Very nice!

Yaesu is getting in the digital game late (currently ~100 Fusion repeaters vs ~2200 DStar repeaters) but more Fusions repeaters are coming on-line every month. It seems what Yaesu has done was to take into account the downsides of DStar and design their Fusion system to work around the issues, plus add more features; incorporating analog AND digital into their Fusion repeaters, being just one advantage, so C4FM digital as well as legacy FM equipment can be repeated through the new Fusion repeaters. Now the question big question..., will hams pick up on the advantages of the Fusion system and start making the switch? Time will tell.

I'll take a UDRx-440 (when Northwest Digital Radio finally releases them) with up to 100 kHz bandwidth for data over what System Fusion would offer with the Wires-X module; as for the part about D-STAR not being designed for it, there are a whole lot of us running low to medium power hot spots that seriously disagree. Just because Icom didn't implement all of the capabilities of it, and chose to limit other things to one band, doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[KF5YDR]

What kind of data throughout can you run on a 100 kHz channel?

 

[JRayfield]

Once again....

MOTOTRBO is based on DMR and thus, is NOT a "proprietary protocol of a manufacturer". It's an international standard under ETSI (DMR - Digital Mobile Radio). It's currently used in over 100 countries worldwide.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

I was present at the ITU -R Study Group meeting at ITU-HQ in Geneva, Switzerland a few years ago, when APCO P-25 was approved as an international standard. It certainly WAS developed by a coalition, that's what APCO is. Part of the ITU requirements for adoption of a standard is that if there are patent holders of the intellectual property, they have to agree to license ANY manufacturer to use the standard on normal commercial terms. Many of the digital protocols in use by manufacturers are NOT ITU approved international standards, such as, for example MOTORBO which is a proprietary protocol of a manufacturer not at all an international standard that has been through the complex process to become an approved international standard.

 

[lep]

Once again....

MOTOTRBO is based on DMR and thus, is NOT a "proprietary protocol of a manufacturer". It's an international standard under ETSI (DMR - Digital Mobile Radio). It's currently used in over 100 countries worldwide.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

IUT-R recommendations numbering scheme begins with the prefix "M" for the mobile services. I have a subscription for the ITU-R recommendations, however, there are many of them, my search engine does not quickly return the one to which you are referring. Could you please provide me with the ITU-R M number? Thanks.

Oh, BTW, the E in ETSI stands for Europe and it's standards are not world-wide unless they have been approved by ITU.

 

[JRayfield]

Yes, DMR is an ETSI standard and so it is a "European standard". But, it's being used worldwide, with everyone adhering to that standard for the CAI. So, I guess one could say that it's a "defacto worldwide standard". It's definitely not just a "manufacturer's protocol", as you claim.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

IUT-R recommendations numbering scheme begins with the prefix "M" for the mobile services. I have a subscription for the ITU-R recommendations, however, there are many of them, my search engine does not quickly return the one to which you are referring. Could you please provide me with the ITU-R M number? Thanks.

Oh, BTW, the E in ETSI stands for Europe and it's standards are not world-wide unless they have been approved by ITU.

 

[grem467]

Does the Motorola implementation of tier 3 trunking also adhere to the standard? What about aes encryption not being available in the us even though it's in the standard as well?

Let's be honest, trbo is only dmr compliant in conventional (tier 1) operations. Throw trunking into the mix and it's just as proprietary as smartnet/smartzone trunking

 

[N8OHU]

Does the Motorola implementation of tier 3 trunking also adhere to the standard? What about aes encryption not being available in the us even though it's in the standard as well?

Let's be honest, trbo is only dmr compliant in conventional (tier 1) operations. Throw trunking into the mix and it's just as proprietary as smartnet/smartzone trunking

Not relevent to Amateur Radio, to be honest, since over the air encryption is fobidden. And, as I said, the ETSI specifications PERMIT manufacturer specific extensions, which is what underlies the MotoTRBO implementation.